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AFchung
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01-15-2009, 07:51 PM
Post subject: QQ facing aggression
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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13/13 over 22 hands
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP2 ($7.80)
CO ($14.15)
Hero (Button) ($10)
SB ($7)
BB ($2)
UTG ($10.40)
UTG+1 ($12.15)
MP1 ($2.20)
Preflop: Hero is Button with Q , Q
UTG raises to $0.40, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds
Flop: ($0.95) 6, 4 , 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1
Turn: ($2.95) J (2 players)
UTG bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50
River: ($5.95) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3
Total pot: $11.95 | Rake: $0.55
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I would raise to $3 on the flop. If a supernit calls you here, you're likely beat, and it will keep him from taking you to value town on 4th and 5th streets
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
I would raise to $3 on the flop. If a supernit calls you here, you're likely beat, and it will keep him from taking you to value town on 4th and 5th streets
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13/13 isnt really supernit, and its only 22 hands so we can't really say too much
does re-raising the flop accomplish anything? all PP's in his UTG range are coming along or re-raising, and quite a few of them i can beat. i might get re-raised off the best hand
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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meh
river's close
I like PF btw, but you probably did it for the wrong reasons.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
meh
river's close
I like PF btw, but you probably did it for the wrong reasons.
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initially i just flatted to c/f a flop with a K or A
i actually was thinking PF was where i made my mistake. if i had made a 3 bet and he 4bet me, i could probably fold QQ since at these stakes KK/AA (and rarely AK) are the hands that get it in pre
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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yea, that would be the wrong reason
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
yea, that would be the wrong reason
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could you perhaps enlighten us with a correct reason? 
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
yea, that would be the wrong reason
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could you perhaps enlighten us with a correct reason? |
My guess would be to get more value out of the part of his range we dominate, which is most of it (88-JJ and AJ-AQ), all of which would cbet this flop, and we should probably be able to stack off with him on this flop profitably. This is a total guess.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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part of that was correct Ill
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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My guess would be to get more value out of the part of his range we dominate, which is most of it (88-JJ and AJ-AQ), all of which would cbet this flop
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is this the part you think was correct? Also does it mean that should an A and /or K comes on the flop that you can fold to a cbet and have lost less chips?.
This sort of situation has got me into trouble many times in the past ,usually as a result of raising the queens pre flop , and then trying to represent the Ace/King when they arrive on the flop .So I'm really interested in this alternative way to play them.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Yea, that was the part which I liked, it shows a deeper level of thinking which is cool. I don't totally agree with the whole "he'll cbet all of this range" as we just don't know that to be true.
Basically if you're 3betting UTG openers (players who already have a very tight range) you're shrinking their range in a way that leaves QQ in not the best of shape. Let's say a typical tagg open-raises 77+,AQ+ from UTG and we 3bet, against our 3bet he continues with TT+,AK. So by flatting we force him to take a wider range to the flop, one which we fare nicely against instead of a tight range in which we're flipping with.
Against loose openers 3betting is a much better option as their range for continuing against a 3bet is much wider, meaning we gain a lot more value from our 3bet.
As for your comments, I'm not sure why with QQ you'd want to represent and Ace or King as that means that you're trying to get all worse hands to fold leaving only better hands to call.
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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So, given the wider range we can assign, are we less inclined to shut down on A or K high flops if he cbets? Having an idea of how he cbets (and how often, b/c that's true that we don't know how often he does) compared to value bets would help I suppose.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
As for your comments, I'm not sure why with QQ you'd want to represent and Ace or King as that means that you're trying to get all worse hands to fold leaving only better hands to call.
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Unfortunately , it comes from the self taught , play money --> freeroll for entertainment--> freeroll to build bankroll---> starting to play cash games with that bankroll background I have. I developed bad habits through ignorance and the fact that folding out worse hands was winning enough hands for me to think thats what i should do.When they showed up with the A or K it was more i should have known better and I was probably getting married to the hand.
Now that I'm playing cash games these are leaks that I have to identify and plug as they are costing money whereas in the past it would just have cost me chips. You probably noticeed in other threads that I haven't been respecting 3 bets enough.If anything I say in the future is crap thinking , please say , I'm here to learn.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Should we be raising the flop here? This might force him into check/call mode with something like 88-JJ and if he shoves over we could consider folding if we think he has AA/KK. By raising would this not give us the initiative in the hand plus give us a bit of information as to where we are at. I just feel like flat calling the overpair pair on all streets is guessing whether or not we are beat here. Maybe instead of raising the flop we could raise the turn. Any thoughts?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Should we be raising the flop here?
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it's really close with QQ, with KK/AA the answer is yes
you can chew on why
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Should we be raising the flop here?
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it's really close with QQ, with KK/AA the answer is yes
you can chew on why |
Ok let me take a stab at this,
With AA/KK we have to raise the flop because it's very unlikely he has made a set here and if he were to have TT-QQ (or basically anything weaker that he would call with) we want to get all our money in while we are ahead so we can take his stack. If we were to just flat call with AA/KK and the turn comes an overcard to his hand (especially if he has TT or JJ and an A, K, or Q comes), he will be more likely to give up because there is now more evidence that he is behind. This would be the reason we want to raise our AA/KK on the flop here because we don't want a turn card killing out action. As for QQ.....
With QQ it would be very situational because for all we know with only 22 hands on our villian he may ONLY be raising AA and KK UTG - we are way behind both. Without an accurate read on his preflop raising range based on positions it would be difficult to know whether we are WA/WB in this scenerio.
Therefore, when villian leads the flop and he is unknown, perhaps flat calling the flop and seeing how he will act on the turn is the best play. If he barrels the turn though I'm unsure of whether or not we would want to raise here. I just hate not having a raise in here somewhere. So I'm going to make a reasoning for raising the turn instead when we have the QQ.
I'm thinking that a raise has to be placed on the turn - maybe he will slowdown, check the river, and we can get a cheaper showdown. Afterall, his turn bet is pretty weak, so we could afford to make it $4 or so to shut him down. With the turn raise he might even check AA/KK on the river in fear of a set. He might call the turn raise whether not he is ahead or behind, therefore we will get value out of hands we are ahead of and exercise some pot control when we are behind. The turn raise will make the pot bigger for him to bet into us on the river, so he is most likely going to have to shove if he bets unless he donks like $1 into it or something. If our turn raise doesn't slow this guy down and he bets big/shoves river we can fold as it is evident his likely holding is AA, KK, or even possibly JJ which he catches a set on the turn.
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