|
TG07GT
|
12-16-2009, 06:42 PM
Post subject: QQ in the BB vs a Reg
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
So here is the situation.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) -
MP1 ($19.45)
MP2 ($11.05)
MP3 ($10)
CO ($13.15)
Button ($5)
SB ($10.50)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($15.30)
UTG+1 ($11.20)
Preflop: Hero is BB with QcQd
4 folds, MP3 bets $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.80, MP3 raises to $2.20, Hero calls $1.40
Flop: ($4.45) Ac, 2h, 9h (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.80, Hero ????
Villain is a reg, I see him around the tables all the time. He is a typical TAG player. I don't think he is 4 betting lite, I put him on JJ+ and AK. Even tho the flop bet looked kinda weak, I didn't want to come over the top and try to steal. Interested to see what you guys would do in this spot.
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
kb coolman
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
|
|
For a typical nit reg, I would take JJ out of his 4b range. This is AA/KK/AK most of the time. I think you're fine calling pre to see the flop, and I'd get it AI with an overpair. His smallish bet here on the flops just screams value, imo.
|
|
|
|
al yell
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
|
|
min-raise/fold. The 'A' makes it less likely he has one and I'd expect this type of player to play super honest facing this line.
|
|
|
|
surviva316
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
|
|
can't say i know what to do on the flop because i don't think i've ever in my life flatted a 4b OOP 100bb's deep.
do you have any 3b/4b/5b history against villain? how has he reacted to 3b's in the past (F23B, etc)? what's your image with him, or does he have any reason to believe you ever have a hand worse than the exact one you hold?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
|
|
Ravageur
|
|
Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
|
|
i would probably fold, but if we're continuing i would suggest calling more than min/raise fold if we're going to continue with QQ (as a float to steal the pot later from KK or we can look to check it down)
|
|
Family Cruise IMO
|
|
TG07GT
|
|
12-16-2009, 08:11 PM
Post subject: Re: QQ in the BB vs a Reg
|
#6 (permalink)
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by surviva316
do you have any 3b/4b/5b history against villain? how has he reacted to 3b's in the past (F23B, etc)? what's your image with him, or does he have any reason to believe you ever have a hand worse than the exact one you hold?
|
This is the first time he 4bet me in this situation. Usually when I would 3bet from the blinds he would flat or fold. I'm not about to fold QQ preflop to him and a 5bet seems like to strong a line here. My image is similar to his, a TAG regular at these stakes. I am perhaps a touch more aggressive than him, I like to 3bet weak stealers from the blinds whenever I have a decent hand. He could have been 4bet bluffing me here with AJ or something here but I doubt it. This time I ended up just folding to his cbet because the only thing I can beat here is JJ.
|
|
|
|
microgrinder
|
|
12-16-2009, 08:56 PM
Post subject: Re: QQ in the BB vs a Reg
|
#7 (permalink)
|
|
3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 101
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
I put him on JJ+ and AK.
|
Shove PF.
|
|
|
|
al yell
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ravageur
i would probably fold, but if we're continuing i would suggest calling more than min/raise fold if we're going to continue with QQ (as a float to steal the pot later from KK or we can look to check it down)
|
I've gone over this a few times and I like the idea of min-raising way more in a 3 bet pot and also realize that it's very player dependent; we'd have to have some idea of his flop cbet tendencies. Still it's a hell of a victory when we get KK to fold with a min-raise here which I'm convinced happens fairly often.
|
|
|
|
TG07GT
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by al yell
I've gone over this a few times and I like the idea of min-raising way more in a 3 bet pot and also realize that it's very player dependent; we'd have to have some idea of his flop cbet tendencies. Still it's a hell of a victory when we get KK to fold with a min-raise here which I'm convinced happens fairly often.
|
Yeah, next time I'm in a spot like this I will have to try the min raise. It would be pretty sexy to get KK to fold here.
|
|
|
|
Hoopy
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by al yell
I've gone over this a few times and I like the idea of min-raising way more in a 3 bet pot and also realize that it's very player dependent; we'd have to have some idea of his flop cbet tendencies. Still it's a hell of a victory when we get KK to fold with a min-raise here which I'm convinced happens fairly often.
|
Yeah, next time I'm in a spot like this I will have to try the min raise. It would be pretty sexy to get KK to fold here. |
You don't ever want to be in spot like this (flatting a 4bet oop 100BB deep with QQ). I'd 3 bet to $1.20ish because we are oop and fold to a 4bet since it's highly unlikely he's bluffing you in this spot, much more likely his range is KK+,AK.
On that flop his line is either a monster or KK shitting itself (AK would bet more), small raise or fold is better than calling with your stacksize.
|
|
|
|
TG07GT
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HoopyDude
You don't ever want to be in spot like this (flatting a 4bet oop 100BB deep with QQ). I'd 3 bet to $1.20ish because we are oop and fold to a 4bet since it's highly unlikely he's bluffing you in this spot, much more likely his range is KK+,AK.
On that flop his line is either a monster or KK shitting itself (AK would bet more), small raise or fold is better than calling with your stacksize.
|
So you would fold QQ to a 4bet? Isn't that a little exploitable? I think he could be 4 betting with AK a lot of times so is it that bad to see a flop and re-evaluate from there? Even if he has KK or AA I still have outs, if I hit my set I'm taking his stack most of the time. I did end up folding on the flop btw.
|
|
|
|
Donkafelts
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
|
|
Terrible. your 3 bet is super small giving him odds to flat you in position, then when he 4 bets you flat because you can see his continuing range is strong, but cant fold QQ pre. You honestly think he'll 4 bet you with JJ here? He has no problem flatting 3 bets from ur history so almost all villians flat JJ maby QQ here depending on what ur pf3b%. Fact is ur call is terrible because you arent going to be able to get more value than a shove would get you oop. You have to do some math and estimates on the villian and decide if his range is wide enough for you to shove profitably.
As a general rule just like dont flat 3 bets or 4 bets oop.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HoopyDude
You don't ever want to be in spot like this (flatting a 4bet oop 100BB deep with QQ). I'd 3 bet to $1.20ish because we are oop and fold to a 4bet since it's highly unlikely he's bluffing you in this spot, much more likely his range is KK+,AK.
On that flop his line is either a monster or KK shitting itself (AK would bet more), small raise or fold is better than calling with your stacksize.
|
So you would fold QQ to a 4bet? Isn't that a little exploitable? I think he could be 4 betting with AK a lot of times so is it that bad to see a flop and re-evaluate from there? Even if he has KK or AA I still have outs, if I hit my set I'm taking his stack most of the time. I did end up folding on the flop btw. |
|
|
|
|
surviva316
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
So you would fold QQ to a 4bet? Isn't that a little exploitable? I think he could be 4 betting with AK a lot of times so is it that bad to see a flop and re-evaluate from there? Even if he has KK or AA I still have outs, if I hit my set I'm taking his stack most of the time. I did end up folding on the flop btw.
|
that's right. i think i remember reading somewhere that the best way to avoid being exploited by 4b's is to wait until you get dealt QQ and then flat his 4b and c/f to a 1/3 PSB cbet on any A-high flop.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
So you would fold QQ to a 4bet? Isn't that a little exploitable? I think he could be 4 betting with AK a lot of times so is it that bad to see a flop and re-evaluate from there? Even if he has KK or AA I still have outs, if I hit my set I'm taking his stack most of the time. I did end up folding on the flop btw.
|
that's right. i think i remember reading somewhere that the best way to avoid being exploited by 4b's is to wait until you get dealt QQ and then flat his 4b and c/f to a 1/3 PSB cbet on any A-high flop. |
I laughed at this.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
TG07GT
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Donkafelts
Terrible. your 3 bet is super small giving him odds to flat you in position, then when he 4 bets you flat because you can see his continuing range is strong, but cant fold QQ pre. You honestly think he'll 4 bet you with JJ here? He has no problem flatting 3 bets from ur history so almost all villians flat JJ maby QQ here depending on what ur pf3b%. Fact is ur call is terrible because you arent going to be able to get more value than a shove would get you oop. You have to do some math and estimates on the villian and decide if his range is wide enough for you to shove profitably.
As a general rule just like dont flat 3 bets or 4 bets oop.
|
Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I had a feeling I messed up this hand and that's why I posted it, I just didn't know exactly what I did wrong. I'm still learning like everyone else and I appreciate the constructive criticism.
|
|
|
|
Hoopy
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TG07GT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by HoopyDude
You don't ever want to be in spot like this (flatting a 4bet oop 100BB deep with QQ). I'd 3 bet to $1.20ish because we are oop and fold to a 4bet since it's highly unlikely he's bluffing you in this spot, much more likely his range is KK+,AK.
On that flop his line is either a monster or KK shitting itself (AK would bet more), small raise or fold is better than calling with your stacksize.
|
So you would fold QQ to a 4bet? Isn't that a little exploitable? I think he could be 4 betting with AK a lot of times so is it that bad to see a flop and re-evaluate from there? Even if he has KK or AA I still have outs, if I hit my set I'm taking his stack most of the time. I did end up folding on the flop btw. |
In this particular spot I would fold it. We only get exploited if he starts 4 bet bluffing us which you said is unlikely for him to do.
Say you flat his 4 bet (as played) and think his 4 bet range is {QQ+,AKo}, you are a 62-38 dog.
What flops are you happy to see?
A high flop
- c/f oop or maybe bluff if he shows weakness(min raise)
- overall the worst thing to see.
K high is little better.
All under cards - no value as AK folds, stacking off you chop with one hand (due to combos he's less likely to have QQ here) and are crushed by 2.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
