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Iconoclastic

08-09-2004, 03:53 AM Post subject: Q high flushes

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 324

Are they worth going all in on in ring games?

Played a Q high diamond draw cheap on button. Flop two diamonds. Checked around to me and so I bet pot. One caller. Turn is a diamond. He bets minimum.

What would you do?

.
.
.
.

Obviously, I went all in. He called and showed a A4d.

Should one even play Q high flush hands at all preflop? They are dominated by K and A high flushes and if I'm not willing to go All-in with an Q high flush then there's no reason to even play them preflop. I'm just wondering if the EV with Q high flushes is + with people's propensity of playing higher flushes vs lower flushes.

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AllinLife

08-09-2004, 03:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 530

it shoudln't be a problem laying down q high flushes

the thing is, you will only be called when you are beaten

unless you are sure that the guy has straight or worse, dont

get to deep in the pot with q high flushes

"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen

Fnord

08-09-2004, 04:02 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Axs will always have the best flush
Kxs will sometimes have the best flush
Qxs will rarely have the best flush

...although flush over flush with 3 on the board is somewhat of a freak occurence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

08-09-2004, 10:00 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Flush draws are one of the most overrated hands in holdem IMHO and I won't even play a King high flush anymore K9s is the lowest hand I'll consider playing out of the blinds.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

Fnord

08-09-2004, 02:05 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

Flush draws are one of the most overrated hands in holdem IMHO and I won't even play a King high flush anymore K9s is the lowest hand I'll consider playing out of the blinds.

Limit or No-Limit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

johnnyawe

08-09-2004, 05:10 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,064

I dunno. I've thought a lot about that question too. On party, a lot of people play ANYTHING SUITED and will come over top of you with their 9 high flush. Its hard to lay down a Q high flush when you consider that.

I'd love to see some math on the odds of an opponent being dealt Axs or Kxs in 10 person ring game.

michael1123

08-10-2004, 12:08 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

I agree with Toasty, but I've never called regularly with any suited cards worse than K9s. Q9s, J9s, K8s, etc. are all regular folds for me. K9s is a hand I call with only with position, and no raise before me.

Only exception is a very loose NL ring game, that I know will pay me off big if I hit a flush.

Fnord

08-10-2004, 12:13 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNatural

I'd love to see some math on the odds of an opponent being dealt Axs or Kxs in 10 person ring game.

I could track flush over flush odds for you. In short they're pretty slim.

Also consider that Ax suited is immune from a better single card flush via a 4rth suited card hitting the board. Kx is fairly resistant. Queens and Jacks are fairly vulnerable. Anything lower is very vulnerable when your opponent is likely sitting on 2 broadway cards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

08-10-2004, 12:24 AM

#9 (permalink)

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I loose limit games I

flushes.

A flush draw has enough pot equity to drive the betting.
A flush draw can allow you to chase down other outs.
Even a backdoor flush draw can give you a little extra equity.
You know pretty much where you are at.
If you hit your flush, it's *very* unlikely you'll be sucked out on.
When you hit they'll pay you off like a slot machine.

From any position, the only unwired, unsuited hands I play are AK and AQ.
From MP I add AJ and KQ, if I'm opening or behind loose limpers.
From LP I add AT KJ QJ if I'm opening
From the button I add KT QT JT if I'm opening

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

johnnyawe

08-10-2004, 01:43 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,064

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I could track flush over flush odds for you. In short they're pretty slim.

Awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also consider that Ax suited is immune from a better single card flush via a 4rth suited card hitting the board. Kx is fairly resistant. Queens and Jacks are fairly vulnerable. Anything lower is very vulnerable when your opponent is likely sitting on 2 broadway cards.

Yup, if I hit a flush on the turn with anything less than K, I'm looking to make the Ax/Kx crowd pay big to see the river.

johnnyawe

08-10-2004, 01:43 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

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Posts: 1,064

hello everybody.

Toasty

08-10-2004, 08:12 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Limit or No-Limit?

Both, let me explain though that I'm talking about Kxs, I obviously play high suited/semi suited connectors from mid to late position with limpers.

I also dump Axs in early pos unless its a passive game.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

Fnord

08-10-2004, 08:15 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

I also dump Axs in early pos unless its a passive game.

Tight/Loose is more important than passive/aggressive. If it's 6+ to a flop, then Axs has effective pot odds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

08-10-2004, 11:09 AM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

If I think its going to be raised, I'll dump it, paying 2-3 SBs just to see the flop is to high a price for me. I'm playing with a reduced Std Dev these days (when i'm not drunk

).

Loose Agg tables send my variance through the roof, its nice when you win those big pots but they don't usually hold together long enough to ensure some nice $$. Which is why I'd take the passive table over the LAG table. Also its not often you find a tight passive table, if its passive its usually loose.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

Fnord

08-10-2004, 07:58 PM

#15 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

If I think its going to be raised, I'll dump it, paying 2-3 SBs just to see the flop is to high a price for me.

RAISE!!!

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A

, 7

. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Fnord raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 caps, Fnord calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24.50 SB) J

, 9

, 8

(6 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 6

(5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Fnord calls.

River: (18.75 BB) 5

(4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Fnord raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB

Results in white below:
BB shows Js Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
Fnord shows Ac 7c (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 22.75 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

johnnyawe

08-10-2004, 08:22 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,064

@ Fnord's river.

On second thought, maybe I don't want to try playing limit.

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