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Sam62
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09-07-2009, 03:15 PM
Post subject: Proper Fold or Playing to Tight
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 56
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I am still on my journey for my first full month 5NL full ring. So far am having a blast, and have been running avg. in cards. - I am playing TAG and trying to learn from people PokerTracker #'s to be about where I should play. I know you play the cards not folding to try to make correct PT #'s. I was at this table for only a few hands which I always start tighter than normal as to get some info on other players. Is this a ok fold?
Sorry for lack of details (On laptop that does not have PT)
Button -
Small Blind - $2.xx
Big Blind - $3.xx
Limper1 - $.075
Limper2 - $2.xx
Hero - KJ suited ($5.00)
I folded ... my thinking was with that many players unless I hit a flush, this hand could be a money trap. My thinking correct?
Thanks for your feedback!!!!
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Easy raise if I read the "hh" correctly. I read it as there is 6 players, you are in the CO with 2 limpers with KJs. Don't see how one doesn't raise. Keep in mind just because there are 5 players to act after you raise, doesn't mean that all 5 will call your raise. The most likely outcome is the BU, SB, and BB folds, and either both limpers fold or 1-2 of them call OOP with an inferior range in a raised pot. I can't see how that's a bad thing.
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Ztech
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Staying out of the FTR Community threads and sticking to the pokerz
Posts: 58
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I would usually raise in this spot, just like Stacks says, usually you will pick up the dead money. Otherwise if called you have position and you have shown aggression.
Unless you have a read on the limpers, I would raise here until one of them played back at me.
--Z
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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Under the gun limped? Always makes me suspicious, but then that's because I fold the majority of hands UTG, and I like to limp with aces and kings here, hoping for the late pos raise. So if I see UTG limp in, I tighten my range. Still, I think I raise here to a) push the button off, and b) ask questions of the UTG limper. If he flats, I put him on 22+, Axs, or perhaps decent suited connectors. If he reraises, it's an easy fold.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tugger
Under the gun limped? Always makes me suspicious, but then that's because I fold the majority of hands UTG, and I like to limp with aces and kings here, hoping for the late pos raise. So if I see UTG limp in, I tighten my range. Still, I think I raise here to a) push the button off, and b) ask questions of the UTG limper. If he flats, I put him on 22+, Axs, or perhaps decent suited connectors. If he reraises, it's an easy fold.
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Worst PotD IMO
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helpme2win$
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 42
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probabbly good fold if you didnt feel like you could win with the hand .
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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"Worst PotD IMO"
I'm sorry. What does this mean?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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potd=worst post of the day. IA is saying that your post is so horrible that it is worse then any other post made in the last 24 hours
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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Right. Fair enough. Well, that's fine, maybe it's a weakness in my game. Maybe I should start calling AJ to a raise out of position, but my experience tells me this is bad, too many times I've been seduced by AJ and been dominated to hell. AJ = ace rag, in my book.
IA, if you want to critisise my post, I don't mind one bit, but at the very least, explain why it's bad, otherwise your post is equally as bad. It's uninformative, I learn nothing from it.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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tugger i disagree with most of your poker theories but you always take the time to explain yourself and that i do respect.
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
tugger i disagree with most of your poker theories but you always take the time to explain yourself and that i do respect.
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Thank you. I know I'm not a brilliant poker player, I'm here to improve my game, I want people to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I am making money, but only very slowly, so something is wrong. My maths is excellent, I can estimate odds fairly quickly, so it's just the theory I need to improve on. Hopefully in the future people will critisise my comments with something a little more constructive.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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tugger, I believe you have your threads mixed up. You mentioned calling AJ oop. while here we have KJs in the CO. That is hardly the same thing. But to touch on both. In both cases, whether you are raising KJs here with two limpers and good position or calling a BU raise from the BB with AJ, essentially what you are doing is putting money in the pot when your hand is stronger than their range. AJ is way ahead of a BU steal range. Likewise, KJs is way ahead of a limpers range (they limp 76, K9, KT, JT, etc). So playing a hand when you have more equity on average than the villain is going to result in profits, assuming you play the hands correctly postflop. The less postflop skill you have, the more you can pass on what might be marginally correct calls preflop because you tend to make mistakes postflop.
Keep in mind not every raise is the same, so just because you call AJ from the BB against one villain or one situation, this doesn't mean you should call it against everyone. I insta muck AJ from the BB against most UTG opens. Whereas, if someone is opening on the BU, then I would rarely fold it. Two totally different situations.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokermakemoney
nice
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free pooper ?
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Carl Trooper
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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dont really see anything wrong in what you did..
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vollski69
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: minnesota
Posts: 3
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have you raised many hands or have you been calling a lot of hands. it depends on your image in this hand. I would of raised if you have been folding a lot of hands. people should give you credit for a hand and lay it down unless the limped with a big hand.
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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XxStacksxX
Yes, I did have my threads a little mixed up, there's another discussion I was reading regarding AJ. Sorry about that.
I agree that KJ is often ahead of most limping ranges, I just don't believe it's beating most UTG limps. Unless I have notes on a player, I assume an UTG limp is a decent hand, such as AT+, KQ, 22+ or maybe a suited raggy ace. I would imagine most people who know what they're doing will be folding KT, QJ, TJ and stuff like this UTG. Hence I tighten my range when UTG limps in.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tugger
I agree that KJ is often ahead of most limping ranges, I just don't believe it's beating most UTG limps. Unless I have notes on a player, I assume an UTG limp is a decent hand, such as AT+, KQ, 22+ or maybe a suited raggy ace. I would imagine most people who know what they're doing will be folding KT, QJ, TJ and stuff like this UTG. Hence I tighten my range when UTG limps in.
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This is just an incorrect generalization imo. Sure, people limp strong hands from EP; however, I believe this is the exception, and not the standard. The majority of poker players are losing players, so until proven otherwise, I treat them as such. And losing players have a tendency to limp poor hands just to see a flop. This particular villain without reads could be limping KT, QJ, QT, A5, 87, K6, etc. So to not isolate on his very wide limping range, and build a pot in position with a superior hand to his range, seems well bad.
Now with reads, then sure you can adjust here. If you've seen villain limp/raise before, then sure you will want to strengthen your isolating range. If villain seems very competent, playing pretty well, then comes in for an open limp UTG, sure you can be suspicious, and play accordingly. But to just assume that everyone is competent enough to fold KT, QJ, etc UTG, and to not limp/call those hands, but instead of only limp strong hands from EP with the intention of raising is bad.
Also, as a side note, I really dislike that you said you limp/raise your monsters from UTG. It's so very transparent of a play, that even bad players can catch on to that. Good players will insta-muck some fairly strong hands to a limp/raise, and the bad players would have called an open raise to begin with. In essence, limp/raising any hand (without a very solid situation) seems like a less than ideal way to play nowadays imo.
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tugger
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 221
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XxStacksxX
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I should assume, at the level I'm playing, that people are not folding KT etc UTG, but trying to see a flop. Like I said earlier, I still think I'd raise my KJs here, if only to ask questions of our UTG limper. But I suspect if I was holding KJo, I'd probably muck or limp. I will try to adjust my play here, see how things go.
As for limping with my monsters UTG, it's not a habit to limp/raise. It's a "sometimes" thing, and even then, the ideal situation is the raise coming from the next player to enter the pot, followed by folds, so I can flat call the raise and represent a smaller pair.
I do try to mix my play up, so if I get seen limping with AA or KK UTG, I'll play it differently next time. For sure, I've regretted limping with these kind of hands before, but there have been other times, naturally, where it's worked a treat.
Thanks for your input, by the way.
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