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Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

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Pokez

04-20-2006, 03:30 AM Post subject: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 20

***** Hand History for Game 4032718042 *****
$10 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 19, 23:20:59 ET 2006
Table Beginners Life After (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: FlopBuster34 ( $9.15 )
Seat 2: bubbaluba ( $10.60 )
Seat 4: MMJesterFPC ( $4.08 )
Seat 5: L3thalDoSe ( $2.49 )
Seat 6: Villain ( $16.72 )
Seat 8: SWEETMISSY69 ( $4.26 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $9.25 )
MMJesterFPC posts small blind [$0.05].
L3thalDoSe posts big blind [$0.10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kh Ks ]
VILLAIN calls [$0.10].
SWEETMISSY69 calls [$0.10].
FlopBuster34 folds.
HERO raises [$0.50].
MMJesterFPC folds.
L3thalDoSe calls [$0.40].
VILLAIN calls [$0.40].
SWEETMISSY69 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, As, 6s ]
L3thalDoSe checks.
VILLAIN bets [$0.10].
HERO calls [$0.10].
L3thalDoSe calls [$0.10].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
L3thalDoSe checks.
VILLAIN bets [$0.25].
HERO calls [$0.25].
L3thalDoSe folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
>You have options at Beginners Hyoglossus Table!.
VILLAIN bets [$0.50].
HERO raises [$3.58].
>You have options at Beginners Hyoglossus Table!.
VILLAIN calls [$3.08].
HERO shows [ Kh, Ks ] a flush, ace high.
VILLAIN doesn't show [ Qs, 2s ] a flush, ace high.
HERO wins $9.16 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with king kicker.

How did I play this? lol, I was thinking of pushing on the river, but I didnt know how much he would call. When do you know when to push in situations like this? I always hear of people "De-stacking" constantly, but whenever I confidently push I always get folds, and therefore I usually just do a strong raise to get as much value as I can. I also may have played the hand wrong post flop (chasing the nut flush, but I thought I had good pot odds considering he was min raising); however, I do think my preflop raise was good.

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Halv

04-20-2006, 04:19 AM

#2 (permalink)

pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: No hindsight for the blind.

Posts: 1,842

Nh. I'd make it $0.70 preflop. Villain played this terribly, put him on your buddy list.

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andy-akb

04-20-2006, 03:06 PM Post subject: Re: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokez

Preflop is fine and thats how Id play it.

Quote:

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, As, 6s ]
L3thalDoSe checks.
VILLAIN bets [$0.10].
HERO calls [$0.10].
L3thalDoSe calls [$0.10].

On this flop the pot is about $1.50, villain leads for 1/15th of the pot, you need to raise this for a few reasons. You very likely have the best hand already; however, somebody may have an ace. Even if they have the ace though, you still have 9 outs to the nut flush and 2 outs to a set, so you have 11 solid outs IF you need to improve, which it is very possible you dont. Anyways, you want more money in the pot so that you can more easily get paid off when your hand is the best and if villain shows a lot of aggression you will know you need to hit atleast another K to be good, and you will slow down.

Quote:

** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
L3thalDoSe checks.
VILLAIN bets [$0.25].
HERO calls [$0.25].
L3thalDoSe folds.

After villains bet the pot is a little over $2 and he is betting about an 8th of the pot, you need to raise.

Quote:

** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
>You have options at Beginners Hyoglossus Table!.
VILLAIN bets [$0.50].
HERO raises [$3.58].
>You have options at Beginners Hyoglossus Table!.
VILLAIN calls [$3.08].
HERO shows [ Kh, Ks ] a flush, ace high.
VILLAIN doesn't show [ Qs, 2s ] a flush, ace high.
HERO wins $9.16 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with king kicker.

The pot is about $3 after his bet, you go all in. Given your action this last card likely helped you [which it did], a thinking villain is going to be laying down a lot of hands that you beat here [you dont want him to do that] and I would say that a Queen high flush is one of the only hands that would call you there, so again, you arent getting your value out of this hand because you played the other streets very weakly. Yes, you got paid off here, only because villain had one of the only hands that would call this bet.

Quote:

How did I play this? lol, I was thinking of pushing on the river, but I didnt know how much he would call. When do you know when to push in situations like this? I always hear of people "De-stacking" constantly, but whenever I confidently push I always get folds, and therefore I usually just do a strong raise to get as much value as I can. I also may have played the hand wrong post flop (chasing the nut flush, but I thought I had good pot odds considering he was min raising); however, I do think my preflop raise was good.

You were right to stay in the hand, but you went about it wrong by only calling all the way down and then pushing the river on the 4th spade.

As to your question about when to push, I usually only push, or "put somebody all in" when any reasonable bet or raise commits either me or my opponent. So if the pot is $15, I have $20 left [assume opponent covers me] and a hand I am sure is best, my opponent makes a weak bet of $5, then an reasonble raise will commit me so I would push. If I covered my opponent and he had the stack size that I used for me, then I would push because any raise would commit him.

Rondavu

04-20-2006, 03:37 PM Post subject: Re: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokez

How did I play this? lol, I was thinking of pushing on the river, but I didnt know how much he would call. When do you know when to push in situations like this?

This kind of thing will come with time. The more confident a second best hand is, the more $$$ they call off. This confidence is aquired by the opponent in many different ways. Here are a couple...

1. Opponent is bad. They frequently make large loose calls, so they are habitually overconfident with dog hands. Bet the maximum when you feel this is in your favor.

2. You have a well hidden maximum value hand. A classic hidden hand would be AJ when the board comes out 9TQ5K. The opponent may have only the J, so you push. The most common hidden hands are sets unimproved, and sets to houses when an opponent has a straight or a flush. These are maximum value hands.

3. You told a "betting" story about a hand worse than theirs. Typically, you can extract more value from players by telling bad stories on purpose, and then betting like you're trying to steal when they gain confidence. In this hand, you told a story about a hand with a high spade in it, and the opponent was bad enough to pay you off anyway.

So in conclusion, when the river brought your flush, you have to decide (1) who you're up against (how loose or tight are they), (2) how valuable is their hand (3) what they think your hand value is based on your "betting" story in that general order. If they devalue your hand, you get more value from the weaker holdings in their range. From that equation, you decide how much value can be extracted. Leave out the last two parts against stupid opponents, and just bet your ass off.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

jackvance

04-20-2006, 03:51 PM Post subject: Re: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokez

I always hear of people "De-stacking" constantly, but whenever I confidently push I always get folds, and therefore I usually just do a strong raise to get as much value as I can.

Yeah, I had this problem too a while back. Basically something like a set won't pay off unless your opp hit something he has confidence in too.. and most often the ones paying you off for it are the worse players. If you hit a set against a better player, he must have something he has great confidence in (like overpair) and not have seen through your betting pattern already if you want him to pay you off.. so if you happen to be at a good table, it's a lot harder to get paid off.

chardrian

04-20-2006, 04:12 PM Post subject: Re: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#6 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

so if you happen to be at a good table, it's a lot harder to get paid off.

Learning when you are at a good table and then leaving that table for greener pastures is a talent that is often overlooked and probably will make you more money than any other skill.

I need to work on this skill (table selection) A LOT. I often get into the mindset that I should be good enough to beat anyone - which is just stupid for the BankRoll.

Rondavu

04-20-2006, 04:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Say something cool chardrian

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

jackvance

04-20-2006, 04:49 PM Post subject: Re: Problems pushing with good hands, how can I de-stack?

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

Learning when you are at a good table and then leaving that table for greener pastures is a talent that is often overlooked and probably will make you more money than any other skill.

I can never do that lol. When I notice that the table is good, I just have to stay, because I want to learn to be able to compete with good players too. They force me to adapt my game and perfect my reads etc.

Quote:

I need to work on this skill (table selection) A LOT. I often get into the mindset that I should be good enough to beat anyone - which is just stupid for the BankRoll.

Hehe so you have it too.. for a bit different reasons then. I totally agree that it's stupid for the roll.. but yeah, for my poker confidence I just have to stick around or something

chardrian

04-20-2006, 04:53 PM

#9 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Say something cool chardrian

Well, rhonda you look so fine (look so fine)
And I know it wouldn’t take much time
For you to help me rhonda
Help me get her out of my heart

Help me rhonda
Help, help me rhonda

Pokez

04-21-2006, 12:28 AM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 20

Great, thanks a lot guys this info helped a great deal.

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