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Palantine
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02-23-2009, 12:48 AM
Post subject: Preflop spot with 88
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 28
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Button is an aggressive player who opens wide from late position (SCs, Axs, etc). SB is a terrible calling station who has been running hot.
My first instinct was to 3bet to 1.50 or so, but the presence of the station led me to think calling was the best. What do you guys think?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) ($11.45)
UTG ($11.05)
MP ($20.10)
CO ($10.85)
Button ($12.65)
SB ($24.35)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 , 8
3 folds, Button bets $0.40, SB calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.30
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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i prefer a call.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I like a call here from the BB.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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squeeze/cbet flop
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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call seems like the more optimal choice here. unless you have a good read on the button (high att to steal and high fold to 3bet)
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Probably call, but I don't hate making it $2.
88 has so much value flatting and plays very poorly in 3-bet pots.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
call seems like the more optimal choice here. unless you have a good read on the button (high att to steal and high fold to 3bet)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Palatine
Button is an aggressive player who opens wide from late position
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+ if BTN is calling 3bets light he'll give up on a lot of flops to even a 1/2 PSB
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
88....plays very poorly in 3-bet pots.
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even when we have initiative? I expect Villain to play pretty straightforward in a reraised pot.
Flatting here strikes me as a bit of a leak as we're going to have to give up to a lot of cbets. In addition a squeeze here builds our image, blah blah..
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Question: What are all the cons (and the thought process) to a 3-bet? I personally would call, but I just want to know 
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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88 won't improve very often compared to a hand like 56s which will flop you a piece of equity you can push with more often.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 , 8
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50
Flop: ($16) 3 , 8, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)
Turn: ($206.48) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($206.48) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2
Results:
Hero had 8, 8 (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8, K (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48
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Taicho
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 102
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
Outcome: Hero won $204.48
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Did you get his name? I kind of want to follow that guy around...:P
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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that spot is soooo different than OP's all yell
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 , 8
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50
Flop: ($16) 3 , 8 , 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)
Turn: ($206.48) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($206.48) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2
Results:
Hero had 8 , 8 (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8 , K (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48
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What's the point of posting this hand? It has no relevance to this discussion.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Taicho
Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
Outcome: Hero won $204.48
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Did you get his name? I kind of want to follow that guy around...:P |
random donk. likely busted his roll on that hand.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
that spot is soooo different than OP's all yell
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
What's the point of posting this hand? It has no relevance to this discussion.
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the situation may be a bit different (it's not a squeeze play), but it's still a 'Preflop spot with 88' out of the blinds which is the name of this thread.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Palatine
My first instinct was to 3bet
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... and i think you should. (and not based on the hand I posted obv).
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 , 8
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50
Flop: ($16) 3 , 8 , 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)
Turn: ($206.48) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($206.48) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2
Results:
Hero had 8 , 8 (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8 , K (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48
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IMO this hand is not relevant because with your hand
1. 3 handed where the OP's was 6 handed
2. OP had another caller in front of him where raising for him opened the betting up to two more people and then putting him squeezed in between a calling station and a loose aggressive player which is only a good thing when you hit that set 10% of the time
3. SB calling station has him covered twice
Just thought I would offer my opinion on why people are saying it is not relevant.
As for OP, I like the flat for set value against an aggresive player behind and a calling station in front.
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Decision making - When decisions are not based on information, it's called gambling
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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tbh my obscure sense of humor is what led me to post the hand coupled with the fact that it occurred shortly after this thread was started. I didn't think it would cause a fuss but i'm glad it opened way to the tangent that it did.
secondly i want to make it clear that i see all arguments against a raise as valid and perfectly logical and if going against the grain has led to a discussion where anyone reading this (not excluding myself) has learned something then i have no regrets. What else is a forum for right?
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by al yell
tbh my obscure sense of humor is what led me to post the hand coupled with the fact that it occurred shortly after this thread was started. I didn't think it would cause a fuss but i'm glad it opened way to the tangent that it did.
secondly i want to make it clear that i see all arguments against a raise as valid and perfectly logical and if going against the grain has led to a discussion where anyone reading this (not excluding myself) has learned something then i have no regrets. What else is a forum for right?
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On a lighter note....... nice freaking hand.
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Decision making - When decisions are not based on information, it's called gambling
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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cheers
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DoanDiggy
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 536
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I like calling. We can try to hit the set, and if we don't we can check behind the station to see what he does after the button bets. If the button c-bets and the station folds, we can often raise and take down the pot with the best hand (board-dependent, of course). If we 3-bet, we're going to be pissed when they both call and one of them beats us with a hand that we were dominating simply because we didn't have the type of hand that we could bet strong with postflop.
That said, if Button ever folds to 3-bets (65%+), a squeeze here is highly profitable. We probably have at least 60% equity against SB's call and we will be playing a 3-bet pot in position against him with Button's dead money in there. Even a station will check/fold an overcard on the flop in a 3-bet pot. So it really depends on how often Button calls 3-bets. We definitely don't want to be 3-way in a 3-bet pot with 88.
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