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Sound & Fury
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05-25-2006, 08:24 PM
Post subject: Preflop Min Raise
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: portland OR
Posts: 21
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I play mostly $50 NL pokerstars.
Anyone think it's a decent strategy to minraise preflop with decent suited connectors and low pocket pairs? The point would be to simply build the pot, knowing you're almost always done with the hand if you don't hit the flop hard.
I hate the idea of having these drawing hands, flopping a set/flush/straight, but being unable to induce any steals or get my bets called because there simply isn't enough in the pot for anyone to make a risky play. My underlying theory is that people get slightly mentally pot committed when they've called a PFR, even a minraise, as opposed to just calling the BB. Therefore, your BB sized minraise is worth more than just a BB. Also, when you flop an open ender or 4-flush, your flop bet gets more respect since you raised before the flop, and people are more likely to fold if there's a scare card.
Or is it simply a terrible idea to build a pot that you're not a favorite to win?
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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It is a terrible idea to minbet/raise anything or anytime except for a few random situations-, but for the most part, just dont minraise. If you are going to raise these hands, which isnt bad, make it a standard raise which is typically going to be 4xBB+1BB for every limper.
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bair
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
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raise to isolate, not to build pots. if i minraise, get 2 callers, bet the flop, and win then i won 4bb. if i raise 4x, get 1 caller, bet the flop, i win 4bb. on which flop is it easier to take down? the 2nd one.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Any player who is paying attention will pick up on the fact that you min raise with hands like this, and raise normal with bigger hands. Keep your raises the same and stay away from min raises all together.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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I LIKE the play personally and your thinking behind it - If you want to be a readable rock, go ahead and raise only premium hands the exact same every time - I don't min-raise though - I will pot raise with position or do a 2.5xBB raise - I think mixing up your bets/raises makes you harder to read - PLUS, building up the pot is a great idea if you hit - you should be getting better action on real hands this way -
I can't believe all the disdain for building a pot - I dont' build one because it gets them mentally committed though - I do it so that my pot sized bets (when i hit) don't seem unreasonable to players with weak hands who will call me - The only thing I have absolute Disdain for is Min-betting - Pot can be $24 and someone will just press bet for 50c...that I hate - I think building the pot is a good idea -
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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It is good to question tactics, even ones that are disdained here. Just be willing to change your position on it if someone makes a good argument. (I am not saying I am going to make one good enough here though. Hehe)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
If you want to be a readable rock, go ahead and raise only premium hands the exact same every time.
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Raising any hand you are going to raise to the standard of 4x + limpers is no more readable than mixing your bets up if you also do it with non premium hands. However it does have the advantage of getting respect and narrowing the field before the flop. And…since it did get respect, that C-bet against fewer people is more likely to win you the pot on the flop. This is a good thing.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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I would recommend rasing the lower PP's and SC's for deception purposes and only here and there.And when you do raise don;t minraise(I tried it once it;s not fun).
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EricE
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05-25-2006, 10:03 PM
Post subject: Re: Preflop Min Raise
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#8 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sound & Fury
Or is it simply a terrible idea to build a pot that you're not a favorite to win?
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Do you like putting money into a pot you don't expect to win?
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
I LIKE the play personally and your thinking behind it - If you want to be a readable rock, go ahead and raise only premium hands the exact same every time - I don't min-raise though - I will pot raise with position or do a 2.5xBB raise - I think mixing up your bets/raises makes you harder to read - PLUS, building up the pot is a great idea if you hit - you should be getting better action on real hands this way -
I can't believe all the disdain for building a pot - I dont' build one because it gets them mentally committed though - I do it so that my pot sized bets (when i hit) don't seem unreasonable to players with weak hands who will call me - The only thing I have absolute Disdain for is Min-betting - Pot can be $24 and someone will just press bet for 50c...that I hate - I think building the pot is a good idea - |
Noboyd said to raise only premium hands, we said raise all your hands the same, and you should. Who is more readable, somebody that raises AA the same as 87s or someboyd who raises X for AA and Y for 87s? Obviously the answer would be the second player. And the main reason we disagree with the play is because a minbet is not good and is something you should stay away from. You agree with us on that and say you have an absolute disdain for min-betting, that was what most of us pointed out. Read the other posts in this thread.
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Sound & Fury
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: portland OR
Posts: 21
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My theory would be that the play is +EV because if I can get a bigger pot now, before the flop, the betting on all the later streets will be bigger. I'm not involved in these streets at all if I miss my flop, but if I hit it (i.e flop a set), the comparatively bigger bets I'm winning on these streets make up for that extra 1 big blind I'm losing on missed flops.
Basically, you always hear that you don't mind a lot of opponents when you have a drawing hand, because you're playing for pot odds and implied odds....this minraise technique, while not altering pot odds, may increase implied odds disproportionally in your favor, enough so to justify 'building a pot you don't expect to win'.
I think the drawback would be, as was pointed out, you become readable if you only minraise drawing hands, so you have to minraise premium hands once in a while also.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Drawing doesn't apply with PP though. I have had 1:22 pots odds like a couple of times in 1.5 years of playing poker. Its just not something one can expect to get.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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strawman
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05-26-2006, 02:44 AM
Post subject: Re: Preflop Min Raise
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#12 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sound & Fury
I hate the idea of having these drawing hands, flopping a set/flush/straight, but being unable to induce any steals or get my bets called because there simply isn't enough in the pot for anyone to make a risky play.... Also, when you flop an open ender or 4-flush, your flop bet gets more respect since you raised before the flop, and people are more likely to fold if there's a scare card.
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I think the reasoning here is slightly flawed. You are willing to increase your risk under the assumption that a larger pot will induce riskier and not correct play by your opponents. Additionally the types of flops you are discussing here are liable to have hit someone so being the preflop raiser isn't neccesarily going to get respect by betting out here- it might be interpreted as trying to protect a hand since you were the preflop raiser and the board has draws.
The respect factor is the flop which you are describing to be very coordinated- two/three flush, two/three straight, and paired. It's not neccessarily the preflop raiser that has the advantage here, but those who are aggressive and bet out first or those in position who see it checked around and fire a shot at it. I think raising with the expectation that your opponents will take more risk because the pot is jucier is incorrect as a strategy since you are going to miss a flop that compliments your hand most of the time.
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