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johnny_fish
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11-27-2005, 11:00 AM
Post subject: Preflop bet size
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I usually make it 4BB flat. Lately I'm thinking about switching to 3BB + 1 for every limper. Good move?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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As much as I can while still getting 1 -2 callers. Experiment a bit.
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lamaros
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 346
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I raise randomly between 2-6x. Generaly higher the better the hand, but not always.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
As much as I can while still getting 1 -2 callers. Experiment a bit.
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But should I keep it constant?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I don't think its that important to keep it strictly constant as long as you aren't changing the size in relation to the strength of your hand, or in any way that could give away information to your opponents.
The problem I have with the 3bb + limpers method is that where I play, if I raise 3bb UTG (because theres no limpers yet) the whole table will come in behind me. Thats not what I want if I have AA.
Also I find if you standard raise a pretty big amount the table will start playing with you after a while even if you get folds the first few times you do it. Of course it depends on the type of opponents you play with.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I'll try 3BB+#limpers with a minimum of 4BB for now. Curious to see if it works!
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
if I raise 3bb UTG (because theres no limpers yet) the whole table will come in behind me. Thats not what I want if I have AA.
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If you raise 3 or 4 BB with AA do you prefer 1 caller or 9 callers? Why?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by m3laNcholy
If you raise 3 or 4 BB with AA do you prefer 1 caller or 9 callers? Why?
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I think we end up having to give up immediate value in our opener to hide our AA. What we'd really like is for someone who's sick of our raising to re-raise so we can really take him to the cleaners.
Fail that, I want the guys already in the pot to call and everyone with position on me to fold. I can't make poket pairs fold for any reasonable opener, so they'll come along, play set and we'll have to just deal.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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I opt for a constant formula of 3xBB + 1 for every caller, with some flux for position and reads, but never based on the strength of my hand.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by m3laNcholy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
if I raise 3bb UTG (because theres no limpers yet) the whole table will come in behind me. Thats not what I want if I have AA.
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If you raise 3 or 4 BB with AA do you prefer 1 caller or 9 callers? Why? |
Because a whole table of opps with random cards will crack your aces more often then 1 or 2 opps with random cards. I do not want to have to laydown my aces post flop a lot of the time because 1 of 8 people behind me hit > then my aces. I want to be able to play them aggressivly post flop and minimise tough decisions.
I cannot limp/3x UTG and expect to get reraised because 90% of my opponents are Loose/Passive, they very rarely raise. They will all simply limp/call in behind me. I'm talking 50 - 70% of the table here, not just one or two callers.
On the other hand I can raise to 8 - 10xbb and get the 1 - 2 callers and a bigger pot. 1 or 2 callers have less chance of catching a flop to beat my aces, you know that.
Deception is a waste of time because nobody notices. I can fold 219/220 hands, then raise to 8xbb with AA and get two callers all day. In this situation I will choose the most optimal play over the slightly deceptive (and slightly less optimal) one everytime.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I do not want to have to laydown my aces post flop a lot of the time because 1 of 8 people behind me hit > then my aces. I want to be able to play them aggressivly post flop and minimise tough decisions.
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Then play limit or SnGs.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I do not want to have to laydown my aces post flop a lot of the time because 1 of 8 people behind me hit > then my aces. I want to be able to play them aggressivly post flop and minimise tough decisions.
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Then play limit or SnGs. |
Or cut the field preflop.
Are you saying that the concept of using raises preflop to obtain isolation is a null point?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Are you saying that the concept of using raises preflop to obtain isolation is a null point?
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With AA/KK are we looking to isolate or just get in shit tons of money pre-flop? If I can get in 25% of my stack, then I'll take AA/KK 10 way any day and push any flop.
AA/KK/QQ are around 1.5% or so of our hands? I'm much more interested in beating these guys for the max with the rest of possible hands dealt. For everything else, you're in better shape playing build + destroy than isolate + c-bet if they're correctly making loose calls against your loose bets.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Are you saying that the concept of using raises preflop to obtain isolation is a null point?
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AA/KK/QQ are around 1.5% or so of our hands? I'm much more interested in beating these guys for the max with the rest of possible hands dealt. For everything else, you're in better shape playing build + destroy than isolate + c-bet if they're correctly making loose calls against your loose bets. |
Ok, I think I'm kinda getting it with the isolate and c-bet thing because this was definitly a bad idea for me. I found I was isolating with AK and having to check a missed flop. Even though I could check to the river a lot of the time I knew it still wasn't close to optimal.
What do you think of this problen that occurs when you pot build with something like KJ. Get callers and flop TPGK. I believe opponents betting (more likely calling) pattern with TPTK on this board will be identical to their pattern with TPNK. How can I tell them appart and avoid showing down 2nd best a lot of the time? Note that my preflop raise will be smooth called by AK, AJ. I will most likely not be reraised by an opp with these holdings at any point during the hand.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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if they're not gonna raise your bet, or bet themselves, but will call to the river w/ TPTK, then check it down and wait for a hand that beats TPTK and bet. been said many times before, but it bears repeating.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
What do you think of this problen that occurs when you pot build with something like KJ. Get callers and flop TPGK.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I will most likely not be reraised by an opp with these holdings at any point during the hand.
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Look at the pot, your position, the board, stack sizes, etc. I probably 1/2 pot the flop and take it from there. Use repeat bets and position to control the pot size. If it looks bad, just let it go.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Ok I'm gonna try it and see how it goes. Only thing worrying me now is that repeat bets are giving drawing odds to a table full of players who value sootedness above all.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Ok I'm gonna try it and see how it goes. Only thing worrying me now is that repeat bets are giving drawing odds to a table full of players who value sootedness above all.
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Giving incorrect odds to draw is a luxury you only have when you're pretty darn sure you have the best hand.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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I play similar tables… passive and very fishy/loose. I have totally given up on trying to C-Bet. With AA I only bet when I think I have the best hand(post flop). I HATE the idea of PF raising harder with AA since it gives up deception to some opponents. These tables are fishy but there are some aware opponents and they may be the ones with the hand to pay you off so I don’t “tip my hand”. If I get a reraise PF then I’ll put in a serious (3X) reraise and see if they want to look me up.
My standard raise is 3bb. It is not designed to isolate or protect but to juice the pot so all future bets will be larger. Man, when 4 or 5 people are calling (some raising) the pot gets real big…fast. I totally accept that my AA may be beaten and I play it strong but careful. The trade off is that I win a much bigger pot when I win. At tables that will call with anything, it is the only way.
[Off topic story from last night. I get AA and someone raises me PF. I reraise and its heads up to the flop. Flop is Axx. I bet ½ pot, he minraises, I call. Turn is blank. I check, he bets big. For whatever reason I decide to look like I am thinking about it before pot commiting him with a raise. I do something at another table and come back to hit the raise button. I missed it by a fraction of a second…timeout…table folded me. Man, talk about tilt! (I am glad the family was away so they couldn’t hear the cursing) I got over it and didn’t lose any money to this tilt but that just sucks. I was only down $8 on that but I missed winning a full buy in. Grrr.]
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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{This post has been removed}
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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My raise size depends on the cards I'm holding, the size of my stack, the number of people ahead of me, the sizes of their stacks, the size of raise I put out in the past in relation to the cards I've turned over, the type of players ahead of me (TAG, LAG), the number of raises behind me, the size of the raises behind me, the size of the stacks of those behind me, my table appearance (TAG, LAG), and finally the mood I'm in.
I keep it simple by raising 5xBB all of the time. I found myself taking asprin and rubbing my head too often.
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