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linker33

03-22-2004, 06:09 PM Post subject: pre-flop selection

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Anyone have any input on ranking of suited hands. For example Kh 6h, I wouldn't see this in anyones list of hands to hold onto, but would you keep it on the chance of getting a flush on the flop.

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ttanaka

03-22-2004, 06:38 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Hey Linker33,

I have a mysterious Group 7 of hands, I haven't posted them yet, they are more difficult to play and difficult to describe. A lot of players that have visited here are very new to the game of Texas holdem, so I've tried to gear the hands and play to a starting simple but very effective and profitable strategy. Group 7 hands really take more experience and skill to play effectively. I only play this group in late position, and even then, I'm fluctuating the hands depending on the table and players. Kx suited falls into this category...

I will play this hand in late position, but not always. This weekend, the fish were out so I would play this hand in late, plus low suited connectors, and suited semi-connectors, but on a tougher table, or an unknown table, I ease off on playing many of these hands. (And of course, you don't play this hand if the pot has been raised!)

mike4066

03-22-2004, 06:38 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I'll play Kx Suited from the button, maybe 1-2 back. Call 1 bet.. fold if its raised before it gets to me.

Ragingguitarist18

03-22-2004, 08:10 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I personally don't even like to play A or K-x suited, even on the button, maybe from the small blind, and maybe if there are a lot of callers or I think im on a roll. Basically I feel if i'm just going to play these hoping for that flush, I might as well play many other suited cards. (However I am quite fond of suited connectors, those hands have a lot of potential). Another exception might be A-2-5, because of the flush and straight possibility, but if you make a straight with A-5 or sometimes A-4, you have to be careful cause theres a reasonable chance you are up against a higher straight. I'm really not comfortable with such a low kicker.

so A-10-K, suited, definitely playable, even with a raise, not too big, A-2-5 sometimes, anything else, im dumping.

Fnord

03-31-2004, 12:09 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I see ttanka posted his revised grouping. Comments about ranking hands aside, I still think it's too limit centric.

Group 0: AA KK
Yup

Group 1: QQ JJ AKs
I value QQ a lot more than JJ which I place closer to TT, but that's probably more of a personal thing...

Group 2: TT AK AQs AJs KQs
AKo is way better than TT and the big suited cards since you can protect it better in no-limit.

Group 3: AQ 99 ATs KJs QJs KTs

Group 4: 88 AJ KQ QTs A9s JTs AT A8s
Are A9s and A8s really that good? Both have kicker trouble and they can't make a straight.

Group 5: KJ 77 QJ KT QT JT A7s K9s Q9s T9s J9s
QJ KT QT JT are all trouble hands unsuited.

Group 6: 66 55 44 33 22 A5s A6s A4s A3s A2s
Baby pocket pairs deserve more respect than this. No limit gives them the implied odds to make them major power-houses with small blinds relative to stack sizes.

Group 7: A9 K9 98s 87s 76s Kxs(?) T8s(?) 97s(?) 86s(?) 54s(?)
A9 and K9 are just plain off my play list. No flush, no straight for A9 and K9 makes an unlikely sucker straight.

Here is a suggested ranking for an 8-10 player table:

Group 0: AA KK
Group 1: QQ AKs AK
Group 2: JJ TT AQs AQ AJs KQs
Group 3: AJ KQ 99 88
Group 4: 77 66 55 44 33 22
Group 5: ATs KJs QJs KTs QTs JTs
Group 6: Axs tight suited connectors (T9s - 43s)
Group 7: Kxs semi-tight suited connectors (J9s - 64s)

On a tight table drop KQ and AJ, tread carefully with AQ out of position. Play group 6 and 7 hands from more positions.

On a loose/wild table play group 5, 6 and 7 hands only in position.

Ragingguitarist18

03-31-2004, 01:38 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I like that list, baby pocket pairs, got to love those things.

A lot of people at the no-limit tables go crazy with A-Q offsuit, I like Brunson's advice in SS on it being a trouble hand, i'll still play it, but carefully..

!Luck

03-31-2004, 01:44 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I like to raise aqo to like to 1.50 or 200. Just because it really helps me to see how everyone else reacts. This way i know what to do if someone reraise or if a king flops.

Ragingguitarist18

03-31-2004, 04:52 PM

#8 (permalink)

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yes, in a cash game, its a sure raise most of the time

Fnord

03-31-2004, 08:26 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragingguitarist18

A lot of people at the no-limit tables go crazy with A-Q offsuit, I like Brunson's advice in SS on it being a trouble hand, i'll still play it, but carefully..

It depends what players at the table are calling raises with. If they're calling with AJ, KQ, KJ and QJ or worse then raising AQ (and KQ) is a no-brainer. Just need to avoid a situation where you're either a big dominated underdog or just picking up blinds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

I like to raise aqo to like to 1.50 or 200. Just because it really helps me to see how everyone else reacts. This way i know what to do if someone reraise or if a king flops.

What cards I have in my pocket have very little input into how much I'm raising pre-flop. The amount of money on the table, position, number of limpers, stack sizes and amounts being called by non-premium hands are much more important. If I'm comming in for a raise, I'm comming in for a raise and giving as little information possible on just what I have in my hand.

ttanaka

04-01-2004, 06:59 AM

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Fnord,

I think the groupings are actually less limit centric. When I play, I value suited cards, but I guess not as much as you do, I don't generally chase drawing hands, especially low/second best ones. That's why low suited connectors and semi-connectors are at the bottom of my chart (if at all). The only drawing hands I like are nut ones, so I'll play the Axs.

QJ KT QT JT - these can be trouble suited or not in my opinion. They just need to be played carefully. Average cards against average players can still turn a profit if you're a little better than the average player.

You're right, baby pocket pairs do deserve a bit more respect, but I don't raise with any of them. Even on your list, you have AQ AJ KQ above all pairs 99 and lower, yet you're willing to fold those on a tight table and not your lower ranked pairs. (I don't stop playing any of my hands due to the tightness of a table, I'll only add hands or play Group7's out of position on a weak table. I figure any table that's as tight or tighter than me is way, way too tight, I gotta leave.)

I think baby pocket pairs are in a class of their own, you can call bets with them pre-flop, but not normally raise with them. That's the opposite of most hands.

TT vs AK - this is a good one, obviously both are awesome. I play both similarly pre-flop. However, I think there are more occasions to attack a poor flop and end it with TT than AK. Not to mention, the potential of flopping trips is there. Now, against raises, I think AK plays much stronger and has way less dominating hands.

A9 and K9 are pretty weak, I only play those in late pos. But again, I'm not looking to play that many hands on hopes of a flush or straight, I usually don't hang around long enough to even find out if I'll make one or not. My limit game isa different story, of course.

I like your point about your pre-flop raise size, that the table environment really drives the size, that's one of the first things I try to figure out when I take a seat is the pain threshold of my opponents.

Fnord

04-01-2004, 07:29 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ttanaka

I think the groupings are actually less limit centric. When I play, I value suited cards, but I guess not as much as you do, I don't generally chase drawing hands, especially low/second best ones. That's why low suited connectors and semi-connectors are at the bottom of my chart (if at all). The only drawing hands I like are nut ones, so I'll play the Axs.

Interesting, only playing nut straights/flushes, yet play pairs without the best or second best kicker?

I used to see being suited as a bonus, but there are 3 reasons I now select for it more aggressivly

1. Multi-draws. It's nice when you have a 45%+ shot of hitting an out
2. Semi-bluffs against timid/strong players. Two ways to win.
3. Drawing at pot or implied pot odds against weak betters (preferably that will pay me off when I make my draw.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttanaka

QJ KT QT JT - these can be trouble suited or not in my opinion. They just need to be played carefully. Average cards against average players can still turn a profit if you're a little better than the average player.

Suited is the difference between profitable and too much money lost getting outkicked or folding to a credible bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttanaka

You're right, baby pocket pairs do deserve a bit more respect, but I don't raise with any of them. Even on your list, you have AQ AJ KQ above all pairs 99 and lower, yet you're willing to fold those on a tight table and not your lower ranked pairs. (I don't stop playing any of my hands due to the tightness of a table, I'll only add hands or play Group7's out of position on a weak table. I figure any table that's as tight or tighter than me is way, way too tight, I gotta leave.)

Adding hands, subtracting same difference. Per my orgininal comment you can't really put a strict ranking on hold 'em hands. KQ and AJ aren't auto-folded on a tight table, I was probably too draconian there. Depends on position and if someone came in for a raise. On a tough table I won't raise them out of position and may even drop them. Depends, but they definately go down in value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttanaka

A9 and K9 are pretty weak, I only play those in late pos. But again, I'm not looking to play that many hands on hopes of a flush or straight, I usually don't hang around long enough to even find out if I'll make one or not. My limit game isa different story, of course.

I'd rather chase a draw than take A9 or K9 top pair. At least then I'm 90% sure where I stand. 9 top pair is either a draw or a sick joke.

jmrogers7

04-01-2004, 01:23 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

I'm not sure that I see many reasons to play these 2 hands in a NL game. Again, that is going to totally depend on the players at your particular table. However, unless I'm in late position (and mostly only if I'm on the button with no raises behind me) will I even consider playing those 2 hands. I'm a little more liberal playing A9o than K9o though for the plain and simple fact that there are sooooo many people out there that will play any Ax. Again, that comes into play once I get a feel for the table. Unless I can limp in with these hands from late position they get folded without much thought or regret. If these cards are suited then I will play A9s for a limp in from most any position. I will still only play K9s from late position though and again, only if I can limp in with it.

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ttanaka

04-01-2004, 08:03 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Yeah, I agree, it's tough to put a strict ranking on hands in holdem, especially no limit. So much depends on so much. Just like the riddle between 22, AK, 98s, right?

Yup, 9 top pair is a sick joke, lol.

Group7's, especially A9, K9, are all suspect in my opinion, passive tables and button position or one off are key. jmrogers, I agree and play it similarly, and even those hands can outkick the idiots playing A or K anything - good observance. I mean, that is the reality against a sea of fish.

If I'm playing against you guys at a table, everything changes. But I try not to play against players like you or me, I aim for the guy who plays junk from anywhere and calls pre-flop raises with anything. So understanding the weakness of my hand, and the weakness of my opponent and opponent's hand, is always forefront in my game.

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