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Monty3038
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10-31-2008, 03:41 PM
Post subject: Pre-flop Raise Sizing Question - Ala Sklansky
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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I am working on my daily reading, and today have been reading from No Limit Hold'Em Theory and Practice by David Sklansky.
I'm up to "Sizing your Pre-Flop Raises" and the section opens with a very interesting thought. It discusses the fact that raising the same amount plus a specified amount per limper may actually be detrimental. That is pretty standard advice around here... and I think something actually clicked in the statement.
If you've covered this section, done some study on this, etc... I'd like to discuss that concept. Sklansky seems to be leaning towards bigger hands pre-flop need bigger raises, only with the occasional mix-in of a small hand for deception... do you agree or disagree with this idea/concept?
I'm going to finish reading through the section to get more information, and I realize there are reads to consider and table character as well, but do you as a player still follow a standardized raising structure?
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I don't think Sklansky is talking about low stakes. Playing $10NL, 4xBB gets no respect. You have to add a BB per limper just to thin out the herd a little. I would even say you need 6-7xBB from EP if you're first to act with a strong hand.
Since I've started doing this, the suckouts have definately decreased. Is it perfect strategy? I don't know, but it has helped me a lot.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
I don't think Sklansky is talking about low stakes. Playing $10NL, 4xBB gets no respect. You have to add a BB per limper just to thin out the herd a little. I would even say you need 6-7xBB from EP if you're first to act with a strong hand.
Since I've started doing this, the suckouts have definately decreased. Is it perfect strategy? I don't know, but it has helped me a lot.
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Ok, so you are still utilizing a 'standard' style amount based on position, not based on hand strength, correct?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
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i dont know much about this subject. I do know that ftr is geared towards TAGG poker and everything is said based on this and on 100bb effective stacks. This being said, the 3.5x is a perfect amount to bet so that your entire stack is in the middle on the river by just betting the pot. The +1bb per limper is just to discourage pot odds, and will occasionally steal all the limps.
Now if we had AA though, we may want to get it in by the turn, so it would have to be adjusted to achieve that goal. KK QQ and such play the same, so i see what sklansky is saying here but i think it is geared more towards live play where bet sizing is less noticed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
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If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monty3038
Ok, so you are still utilizing a 'standard' style amount based on position, not based on hand strength, correct?
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Against other standard players, early in tourneys or less than 20 hands full ring, yes. Of course, I'll going to adjust for the nits and maniacs accordingly. I'll 3-bet the donks with weaker hands. On the flip side, if a 10/6 player 3-bets me pre-flop, I'm laying down just about anything less than QQ+. There are easier ways to win.
It's all about trusting and confirming your opponents hand ranges.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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OK, so if I raise 3xBB with aces 10% of the time, 3.5xBB 15% of the time, 4xBB 20% of the time, 4.5xBB 25%, 5xBB 30% of the time
does that mean when I raise 3xBB you will not give me credit for aces?
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GHOST 24 7
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: california
Posts: 20
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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Well I think raising diffrent amounts throws yr opponents off im a fairly new player and I raise 5 times the blind which is the standard raise in the casino I play in it basically means I mean u got a big hand also my big hands it really matters on position I might aslo just call with my big hands or 3bet reraise u have to be verstile if u play like a robot u will get owned in my casino but 3bet reraise is the best tactic post flop so u won't lose all yr chips but still have a strong reraise with out going all in unless u have to ckuz yr short stack c I learned this the hardway I hate to lose money it just makes me more determined to get better and master this shit I smash in the casino online players are more scary to 3bet
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GHOST 24 7
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: california
Posts: 20
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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Well I think raising diffrent amounts throws yr opponents off im a fairly new player and I raise 5 times the blind which is the standard raise in the casino I play in it basically means I mean u got a big hand also my big hands it really matters on position I might aslo just call with my big hands or 3bet reraise u have to be verstile if u play like a robot u will get owned in my casino but 3bet reraise is still all good but each are diffrent strategies and everyone don't play the same its all on wut u feel comfortable with and the feel of the table sometimes I just watch the table see the standard raise on the table and use it against them lol
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GHOST 24 7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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Well I think raising diffrent amounts throws yr opponents off im a fairly new player and I raise 5 times the blind which is the standard raise in the casino I play in it basically means I mean u got a big hand also my big hands it really matters on position I might aslo just call with my big hands or 3bet reraise u have to be verstile if u play like a robot u will get owned in my casino but 3bet reraise is still all good but each are diffrent strategies and everyone don't play the same its all on wut u feel comfortable with and the feel of the table sometimes I just watch the table see the standard raise on the table and use it against them lol |
Please use periods in the future. I tried reading this, but couldn't make any of it out, which is not good if you want your thought process or something else corrected.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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For one, I go 4xbb +1bb per limper (incredibly standard). I at times will change it up depending on the situation (such as tight blinds, and I can raise less, etc.). But in general I advice not making it harder on yourself. I don't think raising different amounts is a bad thing, however, as spoon pointed out if you are doing it in a manner in which you raise one amount with big hands, and another amount with weaker hands, then you are leaving yourself open for a great deal of exploitation. If you do it at random, then I don't see any problem with it, other than it is unnecessary.
Also another thing that just came to me is that you would need to be either (A) randomly raising every hand, or (B) balancing the range that you randomize. I don't think you want to randomly raise every hand as (1) that's gonna take more time and (2) on the marginal hands that you are raising you wouldn't want to risk raising more than you have to. Your randomizing range would need to be balanced or else, or people could start to pick up on reads. Such as everytime the betsize is not "standard" it's a hand you value enough to try to be tricky with.
^^^^^Kinda just made that shit up. Might make sense and hold some truth. Might not, but I'm too damn tired to make sure.
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well you could certainly afford to raise 22 6xBB and fold to a 3b
plus, if your 6x raising frequency is higher with AA than 22, your raise is protected from light 3b because you have more nut hands in your 6x raise range
the point is of course to raise more with your big hands but not all the time so that your 3x range is as wide as your 6x range, but differently weighed
plus, if you have a "read" I raised 6x with aces, and 3x with 22, when I raise 3x and you don't give me credit for aces you're going to get raped
sure, it's some information, but you're balancing your ranges anyway, so it's almost-worthless information
UNLESS a new version of pokerstove has a feature to put in "aces are twice as likely as deuces"
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
If you raise different amounts with different hand strengths you become LOL easy to read.
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this is my opinion. It becomes incredibly obvious if you open 3bbs with all hands that you only want to play big pots with occasionally (small/mid PPs scs, weaker braodways etc) and 4 or 5bbs when you have hands that need need smaller SPR to work (theres the example in PNL with KK opening to 6bbs)
Everytime i personally played with bet sizing preflop it hasnt worked or made any significant impact, the only thing i did find was that a 3bbs opener in fr games makes the game much easier for me to play with my style (i.e i want to play flops behind weaker/more predictable TAGGbot opponents) as it allow it to play deeper (i can splash around much more and not be commited)
Maybe i havent got the balance of hands right using this style but despite the literature out there its something i read about time and again and dont agree with much
Postflop is different of course
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How is it different postflop? You DO bet a different amount depending on what you have. Why isn't it easy to figure your hand out then?
Although there's a problem with raising 6x with kings: if I call with a pp I'm 100% sure to stack you on any non-A board and I have 15x your stack (when I require 10x if I'm 100% sure)
but probably better to do it with AK as well to widen your range
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
How is it different postflop? You DO bet a different amount depending on what you have. Why isn't it easy to figure your hand out then?
Although there's a problem with raising 6x with kings: if I call with a pp I'm 100% sure to stack you on any non-A board and I have 15x your stack (when I require 10x if I'm 100% sure)
but probably better to do it with AK as well to widen your range
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my bet sizes post flop are preset its their frequency that i change and this is determined by my opponents ranges.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
How is it different postflop? You DO bet a different amount depending on what you have. Why isn't it easy to figure your hand out then?
Although there's a problem with raising 6x with kings: if I call with a pp I'm 100% sure to stack you on any non-A board and I have 15x your stack (when I require 10x if I'm 100% sure)
but probably better to do it with AK as well to widen your range
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my bet sizes post flop are preset its their frequency that i change and this is determined by my opponents ranges. |
But not so post-flop, right?
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