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cardsman1992
Old 06-22-2006, 02:12 AM     Post subject: pot control #1 (permalink)  
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One area I struggle with is the concept of pot control. I know what the definition of pot control is, but I often have trouble applying the concepts. I am sure a lot of us less experienced players have the same trouble. Not so much building a pot, as I think a lot of us get in more trouble by building a pot that is too big anyway, and make bigger mistakes in the bigger pots. Most of us likely need work keeping the pot smaller without losing control of the hand. I was wondering if any of the experienced guys around here could post some hands where they controlled the size of the pot when they wanted to. How did you go about it? What is it about the moves that allow you to control the pot? What exactly (outside of the obvious) makes you decide to keep the pot smaller? Do opponents matter, or is it mostly your cards (or both)?

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WhooFleuryScores
Old 06-22-2006, 04:54 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I think focusing on postflop play is more important i.e. not getting married to TPTK/overpair or two pair when facing a rock's over the top reraise/push.
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jackvance
Old 06-22-2006, 05:46 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Pot control IS part of good postflop play. The nittier your opponent, the more you want to keep the pot under control without the nuts. Another thing is, if your hand is decent but can't improve much, but a lot of scarecards can show up - like you have TPTK on a draw heavy board with 2-3 people in the hand - then you might just want to keep the pot small. If you go crazy pricing the draws there, you might end up with a bunch of callers, a huge pot, and a scare card.

I think it was a significant improvement in my game when I started to exercise more pot control.
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Fnord
Old 06-22-2006, 06:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($114.70)
BB ($89.45)
UTG ($82)
UTG+1 ($113.45)
MP1 ($98.20)
MP2 ($98.50)
MP3 ($100.90)
CO ($39.90)
Fnord ($103.20)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q, Q.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $4, 1 fold, Fnord calls $4, 2 folds.

Flop: ($9.50) J, 6, 3 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets $6, MP3 calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 7 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($21.50) J (2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets $10, MP3 calls $10.

Final Pot: $41.50

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($50.15)
MP2 ($70)
MP3 ($281.95)
CO ($93)
Fnord ($98.50)
SB ($110.90)
BB ($44.75)
UTG ($56.30)
UTG+1 ($77.20)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with J, 7.
UTG calls $1, 5 folds, Fnord calls $1, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($3.50) 6, J, T (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $2, Fnord calls $2, BB folds.

Turn: ($7.50) 6 (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Fnord raises to $8, UTG calls $6.

River: ($23.50) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Fnord calls $5.

Final Pot: $33.50

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($101.20)
UTG ($104.30)
UTG+1 ($75.50)
MP1 ($114.10)
MP2 ($108.50)
MP3 ($97)
CO ($68.40)
Button ($39.90)
Fnord ($125.80)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A, K.
UTG raises to $3, 6 folds, Fnord calls $2.50, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($9) A, 5, T (3 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4, Fnord calls $4, BB folds.

Turn: ($17) T (2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG checks.

River: ($17) 9 (2 players)
Fnord bets $10, UTG calls $10.

Final Pot: $37

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($105.95)
Fnord ($99)
CO ($188.80)
Button ($128)
SB ($77)
BB ($361.10)
UTG ($248.10)
UTG+1 ($241.40)

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with A, J.
3 folds, Fnord raises to $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, SB calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($13) T, A, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $9, Button calls $9, SB calls $9.

Turn: ($40) 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $20, Button folds, SB calls $20.

River: ($80) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: $80
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cardsman1992
Old 06-22-2006, 01:17 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: His call of your flop bet makes you think about JJ, right? So you check behind the turn thinking he is sandbagging JJ. Then when he doesn't bet the river, you think he was actually floating on the flop bet and has AK/TT/air, so you value bet. You were likely laying down if he led, or if he pushed over your river bet. Right? I would have fired another barrel on the turn and built a pot that I couldn't get away from when he showed me JJ.....or lost money anyway when he bet at the pot on the river.

Hand 2: What do you think he is limping with? Was your raise on the turn to try for a free river with Jacks up (therefore controlling the pot size)? Then his river bet is weak, making you think he as a T and not a J, so you call. Or is it a matter of only needing to pick off a bluff 1 in 6 times to be profitable? Are you discounting the flush because a flush would bet bigger?

Hand 3: Weak flop bet leads to a call for you. Normally I raise here to get flush draws to pay, so I build a pot I can't get away from. Why the check? Are you planning on repping the flush on the river? Is it strictly because you don't want to build a pot OOP with just TPTK?

Hand 4: Turn bet is a feeler bet, and you were planning to bet a non-diamond river? You would probably have been forced to pay for a showdown had you checked the turn, right? And then you wouldn't have felt so good about your hand.....

I also notice none of these hands involves a deep stack. I would guess you would take that into consideration, too. How would your play against a deep stack vary?
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Chicago_Kid
Old 06-25-2006, 02:35 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Ok, to break this concept down a bit, I'd like to confirm the concept of pot control. The contradiction I see is that I would generally see contolling a pot as betting bigger than normal on the flop to knock out potential drawers, but this actually makes it bigger if they call?

Help me out with some tactical examples here please...
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Renton
Old 06-25-2006, 03:03 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 i think pot control applied is checking a street with a hand you know has showdown value, but you aren't too confident that you have the best of it.

I think it also helps to maximize ev on your modest hands. A play i make a lot is to raise with QJ from position, flop Q high, bet it, get called and then check behind when checked to on the turn if the board is safe. Then villain almost always bluffs the river if hes aggressive at all, and you win a bigger pot than you normally would've because he'd have folded to a turn bet. And even if he checks to you on the river, you can usually overbet the pot and get called by less than top pair.

You also cut your losses if he flopped a set on you or something silly like that.
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swiggidy
Old 06-25-2006, 03:51 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Here's a link, there is a better one but I can't find it:
Impetus (from 2+2)

Changes in impetus cause the pot size to increase much quicker (e.g. betting into the PFR).
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cardsman1992
Old 06-25-2006, 11:07 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i think pot control applied is checking a street with a hand you know has showdown value, but you aren't too confident that you have the best of it.

I think it also helps to maximize ev on your modest hands. A play i make a lot is to raise with QJ from position, flop Q high, bet it, get called and then check behind when checked to on the turn if the board is safe. Then villain almost always bluffs the river if hes aggressive at all, and you win a bigger pot than you normally would've because he'd have folded to a turn bet. And even if he checks to you on the river, you can usually overbet the pot and get called by less than top pair.

You also cut your losses if he flopped a set on you or something silly like that.
What are your thoughts about OOP, when you think you might be best but you don't know? (Besides don't play hands OOP LOL). Part of my struggles come because I don't want to let a draw see a free card. More of my problem stems from not wanting to appear weak and get blown off the pot. How do you balance the two?
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Miffed22001
Old 06-26-2006, 12:31 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i think pot control applied is checking a street with a hand you know has showdown value, but you aren't too confident that you have the best of it.

I think it also helps to maximize ev on your modest hands. A play i make a lot is to raise with QJ from position, flop Q high, bet it, get called and then check behind when checked to on the turn if the board is safe. Then villain almost always bluffs the river if hes aggressive at all, and you win a bigger pot than you normally would've because he'd have folded to a turn bet. And even if he checks to you on the river, you can usually overbet the pot and get called by less than top pair.

You also cut your losses if he flopped a set on you or something silly like that.
What are your thoughts about OOP, when you think you might be best but you don't know? (Besides don't play hands OOP LOL). Part of my struggles come because I don't want to let a draw see a free card. More of my problem stems from not wanting to appear weak and get blown off the pot. How do you balance the two?
play aggressivly or fold
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jackvance
Old 06-26-2006, 12:46 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman1992
What are your thoughts about OOP, when you think you might be best but you don't know? (Besides don't play hands OOP LOL). Part of my struggles come because I don't want to let a draw see a free card. More of my problem stems from not wanting to appear weak and get blown off the pot. How do you balance the two?
Don't always fold to a bet if you check OOP.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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cardsman1992
Old 06-26-2006, 01:40 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
play aggressivly or fold
Okay, but how do you play aggressively and still control the pot size? That is the root of my struggle right now. Agressive=betting or raising, which does not=controlling the size of the pot unless you refer strictly to the amount you are betting. In which case I am still confused because less than 1/2 pot is weak, and more than 1/2 pot builds the pot up beyond control......
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2_Thumbs_Up
Old 06-26-2006, 03:31 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman1992
What are your thoughts about OOP, when you think you might be best but you don't know? (Besides don't play hands OOP LOL). Part of my struggles come because I don't want to let a draw see a free card. More of my problem stems from not wanting to appear weak and get blown off the pot. How do you balance the two?
I often Check/Call flop and lead a safe turn (or possibly a scary turn as a bluff). I think that giving one free card isn't as big of an issue as betting into a better hand for 2 streets. Remember that if your opponent in fact is on a draw you will win the majority of the times regardless of if you bet or not. Your opponent will also have much worse odds to call a turn bet than a flop bet.

Someone on a draw may also decide to semibluff it. I don't like to let him do that with a raise (even though I think it's unusual at my stakes). Then we might be playing for stacks with a marginal hand on a scary board.

My biggest issue is how to play the river or how to face a turn raise. This is probably very situational, but I'm really interested in some more thoughts on this subject, and especially on my line in these situations.
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