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post-flop thinking falls apart again

  
 
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flintyglint
Old 04-08-2009, 05:29 PM     Post subject: post-flop thinking falls apart again #1 (permalink)  
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here's another hand where i get totally confused post-flop. any comments are welcome.

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (10 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($2.18)
MP3 ($1.05)
CO ($4.71)
Button ($0.99)
SB ($7.01)
BB ($1.95)
Hero (UTG) ($3.60)
UTG+1 ($1.02)
UTG+2 ($0.75)
MP1 ($6.62)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, J
Hero calls $0.02, 5 folds, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB calls $0.01, BB checks

Flop: ($0.08) 6, 9, 5 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.08, Hero raises to $0.16, CO calls $0.16, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.52, Hero folds, CO calls $0.36

Turn: ($1.28) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, CO checks

River: ($1.28) K (2 players)
BB checks, CO bets $1.28, BB calls $1.28

Total pot: $3.84 | Rake: $0.19
NNNNOOObody expects the Spanish InquisishuuuNNNNN!!!
 
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Vinland
Old 04-08-2009, 05:51 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 If you are comfortable playing KJs UTG then raise it, dont limp. I fold KJ UTG but I'm still new and dont play it well OOP.

On the flop, your min raise has only sweetened the pot for two players to come along. If the BB was willing to bet $.08 on his own, he'll likely call the same amount on a raise. With a player left to act, just call the raise and hope to hit the flush, or put in a sizeable reraise to try and get hu...
If I'm wrong on this we'll find out in about 2 minutes....once the regs come anf kill me.
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AFchung
Old 04-08-2009, 05:54 PM #3 (permalink)  
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KJs is a fold utg at a full ring table. AJs is as well

a solid UTG range would be AQ+ and all PPs (there's an argument for removing 22-66 but i won't get into that)
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oskar
Old 04-08-2009, 05:59 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 FOLD PREFLOP

Never open limp.
You can start opening KJs from HJ

raise flop to ~30 - you are ahead of all pairs except JJ+, you crush all draws, and your hand is worthless if you don't improve. You should be perfectly happy to either get them to fold or to get it in on the flop.
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Stacks
Old 04-08-2009, 06:00 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFchung
KJs is a fold utg at a full ring table. AJs is as well

a solid UTG range would be AQ+ and all PPs (there's an argument for removing 22-66 but i won't get into that)
oh really?
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oskar
Old 04-08-2009, 06:01 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I fold AJs utg @ FR

[edit]
Actually I did open it 60 times in ~100k hands and it lost me money.
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Stacks
Old 04-08-2009, 06:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Regarding, AJs I don't think it's as cut and dry as fold or open when UTG. The way AFchung responded it seemed as if he made it sound like there is no debate to be had on the subject. Tbh, I don't know if opening AJs UTG is profitable for me or not, as I haven't looked recently. But it obviously depends on too many factors to simply say it's a fold or an open. Personally, I'm fine with either, and it's one of the hands where I raise some % of the time and fold some % of the time.
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oskar
Old 04-08-2009, 06:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I was going to pull it out of my ass - but I actually checked it...

I open KQs before I open AJs (UTG+1 to MP1+ depending on # of active players) - and it makes sense - at least given my results. With AJ you get in so many stupid spots with middle pair, or TPGK. With QK you can make one more straight, you have one less overcard to worry about... and I'd much rather have KQ on QT3 or K52 than AJ or Axx - even on a J high flop - the board is more connected, there are more overcards to come that can kill the action and/or you hand... I don't like AJ. It's like AQ, only worse.
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Gshark
Old 04-08-2009, 06:55 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I agree that you shouldn't have limped with KJs UTG. Raise or fold UTG imo. As for the flop I also wouldn't min raise. Either just call or raise it to 24 if you're in an aggressive mood. As played I'm not calling the river.
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Hoopy
Old 04-08-2009, 10:11 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Raise or fold KJs utg, depends on your preferences/table type.
On the flop bet around $0.30, CO won't fold it seems. Min raise won't accomplish much.
Check turn, fold river.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-08-2009, 10:19 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I'd open AJs and KJs Pf in these games from UTG
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Lucothefish
Old 04-09-2009, 08:40 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 At $2nl, there's no need to play these sort of hands early. Tighten up a bit and you won't be in these 'confusing' spots so often.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:41 AM #13 (permalink)  
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I call the flop and hope everyone else does too
I also hope to hit my flush and stack a lower flush
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Outlaw
Old 04-09-2009, 01:18 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Unless you are a beast post flop, tighten up your range in these loose games.

There is no sin in running 9/7 or so.. you will crush these levels.
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Erpel
Old 04-09-2009, 01:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'd open AJs and KJs Pf in these games from UTG
Productive? Only if it gets people thinking.

It is profitable for YOU to have AJs and KJs in your PF opening range from UTG in those games. That doesn't mean it's profitable for me or for OP.

I think what Spenda is trying to say here is that you should open whatever hands in whatever positions provided you think it will generally be profitable to do so. Whether it is profitable for YOU depends on whether you know how to play different types of flops profitably.

In terms of flops, there will be flops where you think you are just outflopped and you want to fold. There may be flops where you think your opponent whiffed often enough that your cards don't matter and you can make a play. And there are flops that you hit softly and flops you hit hard. An ability to play the second kind of flop will let you play simply a wider range of hands - because often enough your cards don't matter. But let's ignore that for now.

The important flops are the ones you hit softly or hard. The very MINIMUM requirement for you to be playing any hand in any position is an idea how you are going to play a flop that you hit whether you end up in position or out of position. The critical part here is not that you get lost post-flop - it's that you pretty much get lost ON THE FLOP. A core requirement for playing the hand preflop is to have a solid plan for at the very least the flop and an idea how much money you are willing to see go in depending on how the streets develop and how aggressively your opponent plays.

If you do not have a solid plan for how to play KJs when you hit a pretty sweet flop like this one - you should not be playing KJs UTG or in any other position for that matter. In poker, what you don't know DOES hurt you. I think the take-away message is not "do not play KJs UTG" because that's a prescriptive way of playing poker that doesn't help you grow - it is more "play hands where you can see how they can become profitable" and apply that principle to considering the hand in front of you.

Did I really get all that out of what Spenda said? Yes, I did. Why didn't you?
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