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is it possible to play against too many fish...

  
 
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SinkRox
Old 03-14-2005, 06:30 PM     Post subject: is it possible to play against too many fish... #1 (permalink)  
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..so that your game becomes less profitable. I have always woundered weather there are simply too many fish at Pacifc, always overplaying starting/hands

i know having an edge over others helps me profit, but if theres too many fish theres more chance of being outdrawn OOTM (is there an abr. for out of the money?)

plus more of these scenarios rollercoaster my love/hate relationship for this game.

a freind of mine recommends variations (omaha hi/lo etc) stating you need more skill and less luck. Can anyone confirm this? A game with more skill and less luck than holdem sounds amazing to me.
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Rondavu
Old 03-14-2005, 07:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I am currently on Pacific, and agree with you that it is very fishy there. Is there a such thing as too fishy? I don't think so. You have to adjust to the table. More people in means a larger variety of starting hands you can play because of the odds your being blessed with. If I find a real loose fishy table, I go in on connectors and, Kxs, Qxs, Axs... etc. That's because fish don't back off on coordinated boards. They pay you off. It's just better odds to draw.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Fortune 500
Old 03-14-2005, 07:05 PM #3 (permalink)  
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That's a tough call. Too many fish make for better drawing situations, but your premiums like AA/KK kinda go down in value. You'll usually be playing against more players... so adapt to the game, don't get married to your hands, and play your draws more.

Get your own operations graphic here:
http://operations.talkingapes.com
 
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thestrokes
Old 03-14-2005, 07:06 PM     Post subject: Re: is it possible to play against too many fish... #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDoe
too many fish
not the best word, but it sounds awfully close to an oxymoron to me
"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 03-14-2005, 07:30 PM #5 (permalink)  
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To answer the question posed in your subject: No, it is not possible to play against too many fish. The more the better. Like it was already said, you have to adjust your game.

I think the key is playing the player, not adjusting to the "table." Fortune 500 hit it right on. You have to loosen your starting standards because if you wait around for great starting hands, you will have waited in vain because you will be up against 3 players, one of whom will probably out draw you.

How to play against fish is an extremely common question on here, so I wrote up this guide a while back that has been virtually ignored due to its simplistic subject matter.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7282
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thestrokes
Old 03-14-2005, 07:42 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
To answer the question posed in your subject: No, it is not possible to play against too many fish. The more the better. Like it was already said, you have to adjust your game.

I think the key is playing the player, not adjusting to the "table." Fortune 500 hit it right on. You have to loosen your starting standards because if you wait around for great starting hands, you will have waited in vain because you will be up against 3 players, one of whom will probably out draw you.

How to play against fish is an extremely common question on here, so I wrote up this guide a while back that has been virtually ignored due to its simplistic subject matter.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7282
Good guide, except i disagree with Lesson 11. Since they are so unlikely to bet you will waste a money making oppurtunity there. I think you should bet right out into them since they are likely to call.

im gonan try to apply a lot of those concepts more often.
"Confidence not overconfidence"
-radashack
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 03-14-2005, 07:52 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Yea, I actually don't think you disagree.

In my post you'll note:

Quote:
Note that you really only want to check with the intention of raising if you are pretty sure your opponent will bet. To that end, it helps if you are first to act and there are at least two other players in the hand with a good chance of one betting. Otherwise, all you are doing is losing an opportunity to get more of their money in the pot. Which brings me to the next point........
So in other words, if you are in a situation against 2 players, and you are almost totally sure that one of them will bet, then check your monster hand. Chances are that if you are playing aganist 2 opponents, one is a Tagg, and the other is a fish, then you should consider checking in EP, wait for the Tagg to bet, and then raise him. A lot of times the fish will go along and the Tagg will fold. But yea, there is that caveat there, you really should consider check raising only in rare circumstances since it is otherwise throwing away a betting opportunity.
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mimmons775
Old 03-14-2005, 08:14 PM #8 (permalink)  
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it is never possible to play against too many fish, im waiting on the day i find a table where everyone there is a fish.
"I guess if there wasnt luck involved id win everyone."
 
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thestrokes
Old 03-14-2005, 08:26 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
Yea, I actually don't think you disagree.

In my post you'll note:

Quote:
Note that you really only want to check with the intention of raising if you are pretty sure your opponent will bet. To that end, it helps if you are first to act and there are at least two other players in the hand with a good chance of one betting. Otherwise, all you are doing is losing an opportunity to get more of their money in the pot. Which brings me to the next point........
So in other words, if you are in a situation against 2 players, and you are almost totally sure that one of them will bet, then check your monster hand. Chances are that if you are playing aganist 2 opponents, one is a Tagg, and the other is a fish, then you should consider checking in EP, wait for the Tagg to bet, and then raise him. A lot of times the fish will go along and the Tagg will fold. But yea, there is that caveat there, you really should consider check raising only in rare circumstances since it is otherwise throwing away a betting opportunity.
Edit:

I agree 100% with flyingsaucy. He is 100% correct about check raising and all other issues dealing with calling stations.

thats what i really ment to type, the other one was a bunch of typos, one following the other
"Confidence not overconfidence"
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Sed
Old 03-14-2005, 09:27 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
is it possible to play against too many fish
is like asking if its possible to have too many women in bed.... you just have to adjust

- sed
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FlyingSaucy
Old 03-14-2005, 09:29 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sed
Quote:
is it possible to play against too many fish
is like asking if its possible to have too many women in bed.... you just have to adjust

- sed
POTW
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Sed
Old 03-14-2005, 09:38 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Rules:

1) no man can handle them all at once... divide and conquor
2) occasionally they will wear you out, just take a break, come back aggressive and stick it to them


- sed
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Aceofone
Old 03-15-2005, 04:03 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sed
Quote:
is it possible to play against too many fish
is like asking if its possible to have too many women in bed.... you just have to adjust

- sed
Past 4, the mechanics would become incredibly complicated, requiring you to delegate tasks to the.... screw it, you know where im going with this.
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ArcticKnight
Old 03-15-2005, 04:10 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimmons775
it is never possible to play against too many fish, im waiting on the day i find a table where everyone there is a fish.
Not EVERYONE, I hope - lol....you mean just the 9 other players -lol
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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ArcticKnight
Old 03-15-2005, 05:15 AM #15 (permalink)  
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If I could throw in a caveat on "too many" fish - one I think we have all experienced.

The only time you can have too many fish is if they scatter quickly and play hit and run poker.

Given a sufficient amout of time, you can make huge sums. However, we all know that it is not uncommon to take some horrific beats early on (I.e AA bust by 64os with two pair, runner runner flushes....well, you know). Many bead beats are a result of too many people seeing the flop.

It's really frustrating when, after two or three bad beats, the majority of the fish scatter before you can capitalize on their play. That sucks.

That said though, I can't think of any other downside other than the fish playing hit and run with the table.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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Bmxicle
Old 03-15-2005, 05:43 AM #16 (permalink)  
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The only situation i can think of where i don't like a game full of complete fish is sit n gos, and late stages in tourneys, as the cards usually don't come, and if they call everything you try to do you are kinda screwed.

I could play all day long at a cash game full of fish.....oh wait that is what i do.
 
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whileone
Old 03-15-2005, 01:59 PM     Post subject: Re: is it possible to play against too many fish... #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDoe
is it possible to play against too many fish...
I think of fish as loose passive players. totaly unbluffable. when you get a hand they pay you off, but you really have to show them some cards.

The problem is, sometimes the fish school. consider this, AA UTG +1, you push all in. One caller. then one more. then one more. then one more. then one more. everybody's along for the ride. your aces aren't going to hold up. the guy with 63off is going to take it down with a full house.

I think that pocket pairs go down in value and suited connectors go way up in value. flopped sets are tricky to play, because anybody will call you with anything. if no flush or straight is possible, push. you'll win in the long run. if they are possible though, i go for a cheap showdown. maybe one more small bet to build the pot.

see lots of flops, position dosn't matter much. sets are marginal, straights and flushes are going to make you money. fold to any bet.
Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader
 
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Fnord
Old 03-15-2005, 02:41 PM #18 (permalink)  
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No.

Pacific Poker 3/6 (10 handed)

Pre-flop: Fnord is MP3 with 5 5
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, Fnord calls, Button calls, BB caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, Button calls

Flop: (23.33 SB) 5 J T (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Fnord calls, Button folds, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord caps, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

Turn: (21.66 BB) Q (5 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord raises, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord caps, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

River: (38.66 BB) T (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

Final Pot: 42.6BB ($256)

MHIG!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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whileone
Old 03-15-2005, 08:27 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
No.

Final Pot: 42.6BB ($256)

MHIG!!!!
if the board didn't pair, would you still have won?

ps, what is MHIG?
Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 03-15-2005, 09:47 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whileone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
No.

Final Pot: 42.6BB ($256)

MHIG!!!!
if the board didn't pair, would you still have won?

ps, what is MHIG?
My Hand Is G00t.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Fnord
Old 03-15-2005, 10:14 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whileone
if the board didn't pair, would you still have won?
Does it matter? I would play it the same every time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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whileone
Old 03-15-2005, 10:40 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by whileone
if the board didn't pair, would you still have won?
Does it matter? I would play it the same every time.
Not really, but with six people seeing the flop, I have to wonder how solid of a hand a set is. if a diamond came on the turn, would you slow down? I'd guess at least one of those six had AK, and you were behind on the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebody
two pair isn't a license to print money

That's very true even in a 2 or 3 way flop. it seems when 6 people see the flop, that set is a little shakey, and must be played with at least a little caution. This particular hand worked out perfectly, no question.

You can't live in fear of what the other guy might or might not have, but it seems like you have to consider AK with that kind of action. I'm pretty sure I would have wussed out at that point, not capping the turn but i suppose there's tons of cash in there, and you *might* still have the best hand. plus you have, say, ten outs to make your full house.

I'm not saying you played it wrong, i'm saying that the strength of hand nessesary to win at showdown goes up proportionaly with the number of players seeing the showdown. A set is a monster with 2 way action, but 4 way, it just seems fragile.
Noooooooooooooooo!!
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Fnord
Old 03-16-2005, 01:35 AM #23 (permalink)  
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For every $1 I'm putting in the pot, $3 is going in. I'm capping my set for value even if I expect to only be good on the river 30% of the time. This clearly isn't a time to be thinking your hand just might not be good. In situations like this I tell my "weak/tight" inner voice to shut the fuck up and give myself permission to lose the max if I'm going down with this hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whileone
A set is a monster with 2 way action, but 4 way, it just seems fragile.
4-way it's still a monster. 10 way it's a monster. My god, what are you waiting for? Actually, I'm more inclined to slow down with a good hand when it starts out massivly multi-way then gets down to heads up with a passive player going nuts as I'm getting less than even money (because the betting is re-opened by a raise) on having the best hand at that point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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