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Krieg1984
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05-16-2006, 05:32 AM
Post subject: Position and Pot Size in NLHE Ring
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 93
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After a hand on Paradise 25NL the other night, it got me really thinking.
So many people talk about "pot control" or whatever, but what exactly do they mean? My opinion is that "pot control" means that you attempt to keep the pot small and reach showdown quickly when you feel you are far behind, or to increase the size of the pot when you feel you are far ahead. Simple enough.
The preflop raise especially should be considered for the subject of pot control. Let me give you an example from my own play for the past few months. My standard raise from EP and MP was 4x, and 3x from HJ, CO, BU (additional 1x for each limper). My reasoning seemed simple enough: When I was expecting to be OOP by the time the flop hit, I wanted to discourage action; hence the bigger bet. On the other end of the spectrum, when I was expecting to be in position, I would be encouraging action in order to let my positional advantage do its work.
The only problem I see with this after reading posts by many fine players here and watching them play: Although yes, theoretically you do not want to encourage action OOP, when you raise more in EP etc and people do call you, you are building a bigger pot. Although the difference between 3x and 4x may seem small, this is a long term game, and those numbers add up. Building a bigger pot OOP does not seem like a good idea to me. This means your cbets become larger, and then what? Even if you have a pretty good hand and 1-2 people call you to the turn, the pot is getting bigger and bigger, but you're still OOP (and because of this may not know where you stand exactly).
Raising more in position does discourage action, but you will still get action plenty of times and then the pot will get bigger, but this time you have the advantage of position. This means cbet-stealing slightly bigger pots from the tight-passives at your table (adds up over time), checking behind to hit free cards, and so on.
I sometimes don't have the greatest power with words, so I am unsure what to type now. However, I am very curious what all your opinions are on the concept of pot control, and the different views of bet size->position.
And this is a link to the hand which got me thinking: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-35119.htm
Of course I was technically in LP because I had the CO, but the one guy calling me down, had the button. And I was building a pot OOP without really knowing where I stood.
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Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise  "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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i agree with you. good post.
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finky
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 270
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This is the main reason you want to play less hands in EP. Having a better starting hand will go some way to couter balance the disadvantages OOP.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Pot control can mean lots of things. Making it as big as possible when you are sure you have the better hand. Keeping the pot size small to medium with TP ok/good kicker. Insuring that it grows the least amount possible when you think you are good but are really unsure, etc.
Personally, my PFRs don’t play into pot control. The PFR is there to isolate so my hand stands a better chance of holding up. Pot control really comes into play when the flop/T/R hits and you can evaluate how it improved your respective hands. If I raise from EP with an unmade hand then I am doing it to isolate, not build a pot. If I raise from EP with a made hand that is likely to hold up then I am doing it for pot control….but that matters little because I make this raise the same as all my other raises to disguise what I hold.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I like to raise with AA less in EP than in LP because I'd rather play my big pots with position. This is the way I am with all hands.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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in general, you want to build the pot when you no you are comitted to it (like when you have a big hand). you want to keep the pot small when you really aren't comitted to your hand (top pair)
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Lukie open raises KQo in the cutoff.
SB calls, heads up to flop.
Flop K72r. SB c/c's a 3/4 pot bet.
Turn is K72(3)r. Sb checks. Lukie checks with the intention of calling a river bet or value betting if checked to.
that = pot control
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Lukie, in that example you look to be sacrificing value. Would you really do that in this example or is that just a quick made up example. I like my KQ a lot right there. 22, 33, 77 can all make a little money off my aggression in that example. Maybe I'm nit-picking though.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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