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A poker Gods muchly condensed low/mid no limit guide

  
 
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Ziluminor
Old 10-19-2006, 06:00 AM     Post subject: A poker Gods muchly condensed low/mid no limit guide #1 (permalink)  
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I almost changed my mind when I started to write this, because if you play like I do then I will make less if I play you. What lies within is simply the downgraded version of what you have all read in Super systems etc. Necessarily downgraded because you aren't playing 2000/4000 world class players, Doyles' theories are excellent but must be adapted to situations in which you are playing with much much worse players.

here are some ideas which mold into a solid theory/art:
-Preflop the worst shape you can be in is roughly a 4:1 dog.
-It is hard to hit a flop. In other words usually noone has anything great.
-Deception is an art most people go about decieving the wrong way. Everyone knows how to bluff and what bluffs look like. So make your
deceptions look like truth. This happens when you make your bluffs look like truths and you bet your made hands like bluffs or drawing bets.
-Don't get all your money in the pot on someone elses terms unless you have a good read. Get all the money in the pot on your terms.

those are just some general ideas but here is the meat eat it up if you want to grow strong.

Doyle talks about how he is always stabbing at pots and picking up small pots so that he can afford to take some gambles on large pots. In this way if he loses a large pot he is back to even but if he wins he is way up. In order to successfully stab and win pots you need to think creatively about deception. Don't be that idiot who reads super systems and goes in super aggressive making large bets at every pot. This is how I do it:

- say i'm the blind in an unraised pot with 4 people in and the flop is ragged. Stab! (when you stab here don't make the giant obvious please fold everyone bluff !) say the flop is 6 4 4 ill take a nice second (the timing is part of the art learn how to make the effective pause not too long) then pop (about half the pot size) this will usually win 2/3 to 3/4. If you have caller on the next card wait a nice second then pop about 3/4 the size of the pot. A fold here comes roughly 2/3 time. If not then evaluate your opponent and be ready to fold !
- Say a flop comes QQ4 and there are a few players well I want to represent the Q right !? well let me tell you betting big is not the way to do it. Not only that but what if someone does have a queen ? (remember it is unlikely anyone does) but I win this pot blind 4/5 times. cause I wait a nice second pop about half the pot. (this is deception brothers ! anyone who really had a queen would try to build the pot before waylaying it) I doubt youll get a call but say you do. wait a second Pop slightly more forcefully about 4/5 pot. If they call well evaluate the board and the person and bet again or fold but remember the key here is to win lots of small pots not to bluff people out of huge pots. (this works especially well in the small or large blinds especially if someone has raised slightly preflop you make a small bet and get a slight raise from the raiser then the choice is yours fold or reraise but ponder this: Say I have AQ and the flop comes QQ4 and the blind makes a small pop would I make a large reraise or just a slight raise or maybe even call? Well a bonehead would make the large reraise ! So are you playing a skilled player or a bonehead ? if your playing a skilled player he is likely to be making a large bet because he is scared... So either a fold or reraise or if you a skilled enough just a call with intent to make a healthy bluff on the turn is fine. Your opponent must be thinking what the hell would he call my reraise with ! ? either trip fours or trip queens is the only logical conclusion. You must know whether you are playing against the bonehead or the more skilled player however !!!!
- Stab when you have called from position and it is checked to you especially if there is an ace or king on the flop but be carefull if there are more than three players in the hand.. But you must make a small stab to medium sized stab here regardless. After all a vast majority of the time a check mean weakness.
- Stab at any pot you raised especially when you don't hit the flop. Not the stupid large bluffing stab but the timed medium pop.
- Don't stab at a pot you raised if you hit a monster hand !!! Make a overly large bet if you are playing against a skilled opponent and the slow play if against a weak opponent. Remember to the weak opponent the obvious move is obvious but to a strong opponent the obvious move is the deceptive move.
-To be honest I have made stabbing an art and I can truthfully say I win aa large majority of the hands I play blind hands included. Practice the timing and generally remember small bets (but not weak bets!) are the bets that make an opponent say "yea right man im not getting sucked into this hand ! " but consider the board if there is a flush or straight draw on the board your opponent may put you on a draw. So it's really 50/50 whether or not your stab will be effective. But stab anyways cause hell you need the practice practice on the timing

Now that you have won this extra money stabbing or maybe you are still about even here is where your monster money comes from.
First you must know that position is crucial if you don't know why well then just take my word for it. Many times whether or not I have position will be the deciding factor on whether or not I call a raiser.
I don't feel like writing a novel here so let me just briefly give you a few scenario's on how you might double your stack.
Villain makes a fairly large raise (In all these cases villain must be a fairly respectable player and have a decent stack in front of him, don't mess with a maniac whom has a low stack unless you have the proverbial AA KK AK QQ or maybe JJ) ok so Villain raised and you are in position. well ill always call with a pocket pair the best are the old 22-99 for deceptive reasons. You have 22 flop comes 2 5 9 the rest is history (his whole stack may be yours if you miss fold no biggy)
If i have any suited connectors 23 through 910 flop comes ill call
say you have 45 spades flop comes 44 9 flop comes 637 flop comes 44A the rest is history or many nice drawing opps such as 4 6 7 well I would be hard pressed not to get my whole stack in here. In this case i would check so as not to be reraised but im definatley seeing the turn especially if there are two of my suit on the table then I WILL get all my chips in cause i certainly don't put him on a flush draw when he bets remember he has AA KK QQ the usual...... also do note are you playing against a serial raiser or a tight player.... the tighter the easier cause there is no doubt in your mind what he has right ?
- I will also call with many of the gappers I.e 46 68 etc. I have a special affinatly to J9 Q10 and 810 because in these cases if you flop a straight or turn it etc many times he will have trips, and not even the poker god could get away from that hand !!!

There are a few more cases in which you can call those raises but remember that old saying Aces you either win a small hand or lose a big one. BE THAT GUY WHO LOSES 3 SMALL HANDS TO EM AND STACKS HIM ON THE FOURTH !!!!!!!!!!! Do that by keeping a sufficient stack size by stabbing stabbing stabbing (the correct way) and then gambling with those hands I previously indicated against preflop monsters......

Hmmmm time for some more seagrams hope you enjoyed !
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Miffed22001
Old 10-19-2006, 10:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Making sets and getting paid works so much better.
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Beck
Old 10-19-2006, 01:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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i have every now and then been playing like this in position aggainst very aggressive players. not the stabs, but the calling with weak cards knowing if I hit something I have his stack, and tilt him, and then take another stack
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nutsinho
Old 10-19-2006, 02:46 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 how old are you? 15?
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Ziluminor
Old 10-19-2006, 03:21 PM     Post subject: DOH #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
how old are you? 15?
sorry bro next time i'll try to be more insightfull.
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Margin Of Error
Old 10-19-2006, 03:45 PM     Post subject: Re: DOH #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziluminor
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
how old are you? 15?
sorry bro next time i'll try to be more insightfull.

I think the gigantic fucking blocks of text might have given it away.
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KrazyBluffer
Old 10-19-2006, 04:02 PM #7 (permalink)  

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Quote:
-It is hard to hit a flop. In other words usually noone has anything great.
I love people that think like this, and they call all the way down and lose.
What limits do you play and where??
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Ziluminor
Old 10-19-2006, 09:49 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Does that attest to your age then ? I don't have a problem reading large blocks of text. I was under the influence but what I said is remarkably insightful if you would strain your brain hard enough to gleen the advice from the "large blocks of text"
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Ziluminor
Old 10-19-2006, 09:56 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer
Quote:
-It is hard to hit a flop. In other words usually noone has anything great.
I love people that think like this, and they call all the way down and lose.
What limits do you play and where??

Ahem again way to really ponder what I wrote I said nothing about calling anybody all the way down !?!? In fact I very seldom make calls. I bet I bet I bet AGAIN I BET I BET I BET these are small bets generally and I am almost always willing to fold to reraises Good god I mean Good freaking god I said nothing about calling anybody all the way down who are you, Frankenstein ? BAH ME LIKE POKER ME SAY WORDS BRAAA ME HAVE COMPUTER
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Elexshun
Old 10-19-2006, 10:09 PM #10 (permalink)  

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Actually your post contains some strong theory. Next time a sober mind, and a little punctuation will go a long way in aiding the digestion process.
Thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts though.
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mcatdog
Old 10-19-2006, 11:22 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Consistently building big or medium-sized pots with nothing and keeping the pot small when you have a monster is not the way to make money at poker.
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MiJ
Old 10-20-2006, 01:30 AM #12 (permalink)  
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.I wish OP would have used more spaces in his post .. huge blocks of texts make my head hurt .....
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Jethro87
Old 10-20-2006, 01:45 AM #13 (permalink)  

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Obv. AA against AK preflop puts you in much worse shape then a 4-1 dog.
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martindcx1e
Old 10-20-2006, 01:47 AM #14 (permalink)  
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What stakes have you played at? May we see some PT stats? How many hands have you played? How many buy-ins do you have for your level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jethro87
Obv. AA against AK preflop puts you in much worse shape then a 4-1 dog.
ya i saw that too. makes me wonder how long this guy's been playing.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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swiggidy
Old 10-20-2006, 03:12 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziluminor
Does that attest to your age then ? I don't have a problem reading large blocks of text. I was under the influence but what I said is remarkably insightful if you would strain your brain hard enough to gleen the advice from the "large blocks of text"
My old man eyes make it hard to follow a line from the left edge of the screen back to the right edge.
My old man brain has a hard time accomplishing this more than 4-5 times with out a break.
My old man ego makes me get pissed off at the young whipper snappers who think they can get away without using the <enter> key.
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The Izebox
Old 10-20-2006, 04:30 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Ok .

I like that this guy has broken into the mindset of playing aggresively. I can remember when I first read (lol ironic) supersystem I felt that I had stumbled onto this great secret that noone else knew. By playing aggressive, I COULD MAKE MONEY! So i understand this guys enthusiasm.

While your ideas are somewhat correct, they need major fine tuning. While it may work in lower limits (nl50 and down) it simply wont make you money past nl 100. Im not trying to talk smack here, but some guy "stabbing" at every pot is going to get reraised the f..k out of. And once you fold once its all over, cause I (and any other decent tight aggr player) would do it every time.

Like you said before, you never said anything about calling. So what makes you think that anyone else is calling either? As a matter of fact I think one hole in my game is that I dont call enough.

And while i have read doyles theory of over large bets with strong hands it wont work if you only make overlarge bets with made hands. The first time you got action (if you got action, as everybody else sees this guy who "stabs" at pots with small amounts suddenly bet 1.5 times the pot) any observant player would make a note of it. And it would be the retard tell from hell.

And slowplaying against a weak opponent is silly, these are the guys who are pissed at you "stabbing" all the time. Lol. Dude if you stab at every pot and then check call the flop check raise the turn only a true fish would pay you.

Oh man, I could pick this apart. I feel you dude, youre learning the beauty of aggressive poker. So here is some tips from me.

1.Stop limping preflop.
2.Stop calling raises with garbage suited connectors. 23 suited is not a hand.
3.Stop playing hands any differently. Raise preflop, continuation bet the pot every time. I feel that being consistent is more important then trying to make the trickiest play. Those trick plays wont work at higher limits, they simply wont work.
4.Dont bet half the pot in a four way unraised pot preflop. CMON MAN!

But dont worry about it bro, you have a bunch of crusty old vets here who love to rip on new posters who show up with a "guide". Most members are solid winning players, so dont let them get you down. Its all to help each other improve.

So welcome to the forum, keep posting we always need a good argument
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mcatdog
Old 10-20-2006, 04:38 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
4.Dont bet half the pot in a four way unraised pot preflop. CMON MAN!
Taking a stab at multiway, unraised pots is very underrated as long as you don't overdo it. If you're the big blind and you bet out on a 552 flop, and sometimes follow up on the turn, people are going to have trouble calling you down without a five or 22. But the reason why it's tough for them to call you is based on the premise that you usually do have a big hand when you start going nuts in an unraised pot. I've been trying to take down some of these pots lately and I've been having a fair amount of success.

The way this guy talks though, it seems like he bets out every time the flop has some garbage that probably didn't hit anybody. When you do it every time, or even half of the time, you're just setting money on fire. Pick your spots better.
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The Izebox
Old 10-20-2006, 04:57 AM #18 (permalink)  
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I was under the impression that he meant to do it often.

Its obvious there arent concrete rules which say one play is wrong all of the time. Trying to pick up an unraised pot in position with naked high cards on the flop is far from a bad play. I do it often myself.

Leading into a 4-5 way pot from the small blind with air is no good. 6 max, maybe you can pick up a pot now and then with flops that are coordinated to seem as if they would hit a random hand (552)

I just disagree that leading the flop and turn with air is a play where you are going to be making money.
Leading with mid pair? Okay, you have outs if not the best hand.
Leading with a decent draw? I do it everytime along with weak top pairs.

But throwing out 3/4s pot with a wish and a prayer is no good.

In very specific flops ( 552) you can maybe take it down. I think that normally you will be throwing money away tho when there are 4-5 limpers in the hand. My opinion only.
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TerryToma
Old 10-20-2006, 04:58 AM #19 (permalink)  
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interesting post. agreed better punctuation and formatting could make it better.

the discussion of "timing" bets is interesting and something i need to work on. insta c-bet vs "thinking" c-bet etc..
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pgil
Old 10-20-2006, 02:49 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I have usually found that at the lower limits, if a player pauses before betting you should raise them, because it was usually them deciding to bluff. If it's a long drawn out "hollywood" pause, then that's different.

This can change from person to person, but is a fairly good starting point.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 10-20-2006, 03:08 PM     Post subject: Re: A poker Gods muchly condensed low/mid no limit guide #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziluminor
here are some ideas which mold into a solid theory/art:
-Preflop the worst shape you can be in is roughly a 4:1 dog.
!
Not even close.

JJ vs 72o = 8.2 : 1
AA vs AKo = 13.5 : 1
KK vs K20 = 21.9 : 1
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Ragnar4
Old 10-24-2006, 09:40 AM #22 (permalink)  
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I have a very hard time with the "stab at the pot" theory in which betting a "portion" of the pot is considered correct.

Simple fact of the matter is, Doyle himself thinks that betting some portion of the pot is a "post oak bluff" and instead just make it easy and bet the size of the pot. Only the strongest draws are getting odds, and that's the name of this game right? Making your opponents pay more than it's worth to draw out on you?

I agree with Doyle here, post oak bluffs are weak. If I'm post oaking it, I'm trying to induce a re-raise so I can stack my opponent.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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BankItDrew
Old 10-25-2006, 08:36 AM #23 (permalink)  
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 To the original poster:

Practice your super aggresive style at the 1 cent 2 cent tables and work your way up. If you make tiny adjustments here and there and practice bankroll management, you will be successful.


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BankItDrew
Old 10-25-2006, 08:39 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
\Only the strongest draws are getting odds, and that's the name of this game right? Making your opponents pay more than it's worth to draw out on you?
I think the name of the game is to win as many chips when you are ahead and loose as little as possible when you are behind. Oh and add bluffing into that equation somewhere in the middle.
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Miffed22001
Old 10-25-2006, 01:09 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziluminor
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrazyBluffer
Quote:
-It is hard to hit a flop. In other words usually noone has anything great.
I love people that think like this, and they call all the way down and lose.
What limits do you play and where??

Ahem again way to really ponder what I wrote I said nothing about calling anybody all the way down !?!? In fact I very seldom make calls. I bet I bet I bet AGAIN I BET I BET I BET these are small bets generally and I am almost always willing to fold to reraises Good god I mean Good freaking god I said nothing about calling anybody all the way down who are you, Frankenstein ? BAH ME LIKE POKER ME SAY WORDS BRAAA ME HAVE COMPUTER
bet bet betting is the sinlge most explotable line in poker imo. I got nothing from your post, i dont theres much to read that is really of any use.
Sit next to an aggro player and see how long your assumptions on poker last. Not long.
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jyms
Old 10-25-2006, 06:13 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 Where was the reraise portion of these statements? If someone is showing 75% Cbets on my tracker. I pop him back almost everytime witha any hand with potential. Hitting the flop is 1:3 is it not? So would it not stand to reason that any three handed+ someone is hitting the flop. This also discludes the fact that someone started with a hand.

Example, UTG limps, I raise, BB calls(you), UTG completes. You think post flop no one has a hand? How about this, two limpers, I'm BB, I raise. What do I need to have here to raise two limpers out of position?

What is the normal betting patterns at your limits? At my tables it's either 5 handed where they all limp, 2 limpers then a raise and one caller or Open for 4xbb and a caller or two. How can anybody not have a hand after the flop. It may not be a good hand, but like I'm saying, if the C-bet comes from the same guy over and over again I'm hitting a peice and pushing him all day to quit.
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martindcx1e
Old 10-25-2006, 09:00 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Who exactly is the poker God here?
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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The Izebox
Old 10-25-2006, 10:21 PM #28 (permalink)  
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hes long gone fellas. We ran him off.
Me? I always tell the truth.

Even when I lie.
 
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Margin Of Error
Old 10-25-2006, 10:22 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Who exactly is the poker God here?

The OP obviously.
She looked at me and said youz a baby right?
I told her, I'm 18 and live a crazy life
Plus I'll tell you what the 80's like
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martindcx1e
Old 10-26-2006, 01:32 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margin Of Error
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Who exactly is the poker God here?

The OP obviously.
How dare I doubt him?
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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euphoricism
Old 10-26-2006, 03:31 AM #31 (permalink)  
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You guys are assholes.
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martindcx1e
Old 10-26-2006, 04:19 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
You guys are assholes.
He brought it on himself
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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TerryToma
Old 10-26-2006, 04:59 AM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
You guys are assholes.
He brought it on himself
i like hearing from other people's strategies.. even if they arent the most "ideal" strategy its nice to hear what other people are thinking. for example i remember seeing a couple of really good 63/5 players at full ring, usually having about 400+bb's.
Oldest TerryBlog (the good ole days): http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40661.htm

Older TerryBlog (failed attempt #1):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...887&highlight=
 
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martindcx1e
Old 10-26-2006, 05:28 AM #34 (permalink)  
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martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryToma
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
You guys are assholes.
He brought it on himself
i like hearing from other people's strategies.. even if they arent the most "ideal" strategy its nice to hear what other people are thinking. for example i remember seeing a couple of really good 63/5 players at full ring, usually having about 400+bb's.
i'm fine with hearing other strategies too. i think

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
You guys are assholes.
is uncalled for. people should expect others to have differing opinions about the way they play sometimes. he should be able to take a little heat for calling himself a poker god, and he should expect people to correct him on stuff like the 4:1 pre-flop thing.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Ragnar4
Old 10-26-2006, 06:37 AM #35 (permalink)  
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lol.. yeah. I giggled to myself when he made the 4:1 pre flop sentence. I think he missed the point that If you play well, and only play good cards in good spots that you'll rarely be more than a 4:1 dog. Which IS true.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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glenndelen
Old 10-26-2006, 09:26 AM     Post subject: How to improve my strategy. #36 (permalink)  

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glenndelen
I have played this strategy with some success. $1/2 NL tables where you are looking to see cheap flops when you have a pocket pair(searching for trips with low pairs or an overpair with JJ or better) or your pocket cards are suited and there is only 1 or 2 values between them. eg. Call with 8d jd but not 8d qd. This is because unless you hit the straight on the flop, then best you can do is chase a gunshot straight which 9/10 times has bad odds. You only need to hit 2 cards

Generally speaking I am only looking for trips or better. My main aim with this strategy is to win big pots by catching the 2 or 3 average players at a table bluffing at a pot or not being able to throw down their AK or pocket pair.

I have found that recently at the tables I have been playing have been too aggressive pre-flop. I am looking at limping in to hands when I get the pockets I am after however I am finding that Ill wait 25mins for a low pocket pair only to be faced with an $8 preflop raise. I think about calling with my 6-6 but I know that if any picture card his the flop I will fold.

Any suggestions on how to improve my obviously flawed strategy.
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dpe8598
Old 10-26-2006, 05:16 PM     Post subject: Re: How to improve my strategy. #37 (permalink)  
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dpe8598
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenndelen
I have played this strategy with some success. $1/2 NL tables where you are looking to see cheap flops when you have a pocket pair(searching for trips with low pairs or an overpair with JJ or better) or your pocket cards are suited and there is only 1 or 2 values between them. eg. Call with 8d jd but not 8d qd. This is because unless you hit the straight on the flop, then best you can do is chase a gunshot straight which 9/10 times has bad odds. You only need to hit 2 cards

Generally speaking I am only looking for trips or better. My main aim with this strategy is to win big pots by catching the 2 or 3 average players at a table bluffing at a pot or not being able to throw down their AK or pocket pair.

I have found that recently at the tables I have been playing have been too aggressive pre-flop. I am looking at limping in to hands when I get the pockets I am after however I am finding that Ill wait 25mins for a low pocket pair only to be faced with an $8 preflop raise. I think about calling with my 6-6 but I know that if any picture card his the flop I will fold.

Any suggestions on how to improve my obviously flawed strategy.
A couple things:

1. Only limp w/ these suited gapper type cards from late position w/ a few limpers already in the pot. You are probably getting raised out of the pot a lot preflop, because you are limping way too much w/ these hands from early position. Limping from early position w/out a hand w/ legs= bad imo.

2. Your PP 66 scenario is way too weak. You need to consider more variables before you instafold after a picture flop. Ultimately, I like to at least tenuatively decide before the flop why am I playing the low PP. If I hit my set, do I know that this guy is going to pay me off? If that is true, then you have an instafold if you don't hit your set, because according to our knowledge, this guy isn't letting go of his hand. Another scenario is that you know this guy likes to raise a lot preflop, throw in a continuation bet, and then give up if he is not strong. If this is true, do not instafold to scary boards, you can take this pot down later. Of course, against good players you have all kinds of scenarios that lie somewhere in between those two, but I hope that helps.
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