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Borax
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02-14-2005, 12:16 PM
Post subject: A pocket T's - All in question
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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Situation:
4 players left in 10 player single table tournament. 3 places payed.
2 players with 3800 chips each, including me.
2 players with 1000 and 1400 chips.
Blinds are 160/320.
I am big blind (320) and get pocket T's.
First player (1000 chips) calls.
Button (3800 chips) goes all in.
Third player (1400-160= 1240 chips) folds.
I fold, only due to gut-feeling saying I hold second best hand.
First player folds.
I have to add that the All in guy had played a tight game, and always showed a good hand when playing. I had not seen him bluff to that point and figured I was up against a high pair or maybe A K. I also thought, why risk chip leading position here. As things turned out I ended up in third place after loosing big pots to two lucky river cards in a row with good hands.... and then I couldn't help thinking about this pocket T's hand.
So, do you think I should have gone all in for 3800 chips here 
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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No. Tight player pushes all in with little provocation - he's probably got a very good hand, at least AK, which puts you in a coinflip situation. And there's no need for coinflips unless you are short-stacked, which you definitely weren't. Add in the possibility of the third player calling and reducing your odds to come out ahead on the hand... there's no real need to go all in here. I would only do it if I had a read that the first player to push was prone to big bluffs like that and I really thought I was a favorite. Which is only true if he holds a lower pair, or any hand with just one overcard (i.e. A9).
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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No, I'd let it go too. He's risking a lot of chips, and based on your feel for him he wouldn't do that with 99 or less.
btw AQ AK KQ KJ etc. have just as much chance against you as AK does here. With tens you want to be the one pushing unless you're pretty sure they're screwing around.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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I call AI. He's pushing on the button-classic position steal. If he had a monster hand, he would suck you guys in.
You have 3500 chips left which in only 10BB. Action is fast and furious going 4 ways. You have a great hand. Button makes a steal attempt and it does not appear that he is looking for a call. I'll take the race in that situation every time. The odds of you catching another great hand in 2-3 orbits is slim. You have to play the cards you are dealt, or you will find youself racing later with lesser holdings to stay alive.
Your only concern is UTG who could concievably call and sandwich you but his call is only going to give you better pot odds and if he wins he can't knock you out and you still have a shot at the side pot.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a terrible fold if that was your read. But personally, I make that call.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SteveO
I call AI. He's pushing on the button-classic position steal. If he had a monster hand, he would suck you guys in.
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To me a move like this from a tight player (assuming the read was correct) screams "decent pocket pair." Something like jacks or queens. Maybe even a lower pair (7s through 9s) but I'm not sure I'd take that chance when I had a share in the chip lead. It feels to me like he likes his hand but doesn't want to be called.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Just a style question, I guess. I'm playing to win 1st. Just not my style to be blinded into fourth place.
3800 chips is not a significant "chip lead" as even the shortest stacks are one hand away from getting even with you. I go for the real chip lead and try to knock out the other big stack with my 1010.
Are you 4.5 to 1 dog to his overpair? probably not.
Are you racing against his overcards? probably. I take the race every time even though I am only sleightly ahead because you will have very limited opportunities like that. At best, you survive a few more orbits and find yourself making desperate plays with worse cards.
Even if you think that you are better than your opponets the blinds are getting to the point where it is a move-in game and don't kid yourself into thinking that you will "outplay" the other guy after the flop.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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DrumzCT
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 159
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He is in position for a blind steal but I think when your fourhanded with three places paying, a steal via an all in is unlikely when everyone is waiting for that last person to go out.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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I don't know who you play with but AI steal 4 handed is exactly the right move b/c the blinds will never call you unless they have a premium hand like 1010. It's when the button limps or min raises that the hair on you neck stands up. Sure he could have a whopper like KK or QQ but if that's the case you take your medicine and know that you went out playing a great hand.
Sklansky's poker book would definitely tell you to fold so you can squeak into the money. SteveO's poker book would tell you to call. I don't think either option is necessarily incorrect.
Sure, you would rather be the first one to put the $ in the pot, but you just won't win tournaments if you don't have the balls to make that call once in a while, and submit you fate to the poker gods in what is most likely a race.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Here's some good advice:
NEVER call all in with less than AA or KK.
Not AK,not QQ.
These are hands you can raise all in, but never call for all your chips. If you're wrong, you're done, out of the tourney.
When you raise, you can win when they fold or if you have the best hand.
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{This post has been removed}
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Hubris1
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 163
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Here's some good advice:
NEVER call all in with less than AA or KK.
Not AK,not QQ.
These are hands you can raise all in, but never call for all your chips. If you're wrong, you're done, out of the tourney.
When you raise, you can win when they fold or if you have the best hand.
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Uh maybe at level one through three, at any other point in the tournament QQ is like printed gold. You can't be a rock in a tourney outside of the first few levels or you're simply the rarer form of dead money, those that finish just before the bubble instead of the first few rounds.
Better to go out with QQ than Q 10 or whatever garbage you end up having to push with when you get blinded to death, you'll actually have a stack worth doubling up with too.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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Yesterday I played my first multitable tournament, a NL freeze out (1$) with 800 players. I was pleased to still be playing after the break and kept my stack on average. Then I was falling behind the average a bit and went all in with AKs against 3 callers and a minimum raise. The raiser called me with pocket T's, flopped a set and I was out as number 158. So maybe I got the answer to my own question there.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Quote:
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I''ll call an all in with crap if I have the stack to absorb the loss
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I didn't call an all in. I said call all-in. I mean calling off all your chips.
The point is you can push all in with whatever you want. You put your opponent to a decision. IF you have the stack, call your opponents push.
Just don't call away all your chips in a tourney.
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Wet_DreaMer
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Viridian City!
Posts: 190
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Here's some good advice:
NEVER call all in with less than AA or KK.
Not AK,not QQ.
These are hands you can raise all in, but never call for all your chips. If you're wrong, you're done, out of the tourney.
When you raise, you can win when they fold or if you have the best hand.
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LOL.
Damn I want to play with you sometime, no offense but that is just absolutely ridiculous. Ive re-raised all in before with just about every hand possible. It depends completely on the situation of course, but in the right circumstances I would call all in with any hand too.
Anyway for this hand, Im folding 1010 no question. In fact Im probably folding anything less than AA. Even KK and QQ will most likely be up against a decent 3-1 race. Sure your most likely ahead but why risk it at this point? Be the aggressor dont defend.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 58
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I think you know the answer to your question.
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