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Lodogg
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01-03-2006, 09:49 PM
Post subject: Pocket Tens-Over rated?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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I have always had problems playing pocket Tens so I decided to do some math on pocket Tens and this is what I came up with:
On the flop there are potentially 16 overcards that can come out
Odds of having overpair after flop=
34/50 * 33/49 * 32/48 = 30.54%
Plus
Odds of hitting a set=11.74%
30.54+11.74=42.28%
Are pocket pairs underrated after taking a looking at the math of it?Maybe I am not including the fold equity from preflop raises and c-bets.
Anyone else have thoughts or problems playing with this hand. Does anyone think that maybe this hand should be trated like other smaller pocket pairs and only call pre-flop and hope for a set or overpair?
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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I play it for set value but if the flop comes with all unders I’ll play it like an overpair. The only problem with that is you occasionally get nipped from a JJ pair that was played the same way.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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I agree with you Eric. I would play Jacks with a preflop raise because the math came out to over 50%, so I can safely assume that I would be ahead postflop more often than not. In pretty much every book out there they recommend a raise with pocket Tens. I wonder where the thinking behind that comes from?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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It's a better hand when you're not just playing your cards + the board.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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TT is a big hand, but I'm normally not reraising it.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's a better hand when you're not just playing your cards + the board.
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Any hand can be good if you arent just playing your hand + the board. Its just tricky for some of us to know when...
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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TT is my favorite hand. Think about its versatility. It's a high enough pocket to hold good power is a few hands, but just ugly enough to find the muck easily when you're beat. It's a member of the high pocket club, but has the luxury of not holding a lot of reverse implied odds, as the other big boys do. People play TT and JJ a variety of different ways. I raise them in LP, with the exception of when there are a couple things going on...
1) The table is very loose
I don't raise it in this situation for obvious reasons. My opponents are giving me good implied odds preflop and postflop anyway, so why raise a hand so vulnerable into 3 callers?
2) In tournament play, when a tilty short stack is hanging out in the blinds
Only when blinds are not that large. There are a couple reasons for this. First off they will push with any ace, and you'll be able to call, where if you raise preflop they'll fold A3. The second reason is when a short stack hits any piece of a flop they push. Often it's something stupid like a pair of 6's. It's a good trap hand 2 or 3 handed with a shorty in the mix.
I'm sure there are more variables I'm not thinking of, but most of the time I limp. The one time I'll raise from EP with TT or JJ is in a tournament end game situation with high blinds. Early raises get more respect, so you're just giving yourself more fold equity against anything but a premium hand with something like 8K chips in the middle for the taking.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Pelion, don't worry about Fnord. He doesn't mean anything personal by his statements. . . well, usually.
Anyway, TT is very position dependant for me. In EP and MP I play for set value. In LP though, you can be more comfortable opening up and raising pre-flop then c-betting to take it down. I also throw out the occasional min-raise to build the pot for the sets you do hit. I just makes it easier to get all the money in the middle with a few limpers. If you play it aggressive after the flop, it also looks like a min-raised KK/AA.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I have bust out of more tourneys with TT than with any other hand, which is indicative of me overplaying it. It can be so sexy but omg getting wedded to it is almost certain doom.
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Dunk
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Metrowest Massachusetts
Posts: 131
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Just 'cause I find it useful, Mike Caro's Misery Index I think gives some insight into this:
Quote:
THE MISERY INDEX.
That's interesting, but not especially useful. Maybe the following will help you know how often to expect an unfavorable flop. It tells you how frequently the flop will not provide you with at least one more of your rank (thus making three-of-a-kind or rarely four-of-a-kind) AND the flop will contain at least one card higher than your pair. Based on that simplistic assumption, this is the "Misery Index" taken from my Professional Hold'em Report . ..
Starting Pair Misery Index After Flop
2-2 88.24%
3-3 88.22%
4-4 87.92%
5-5 86.97%
6-6 85.01 %
7-7 81.65%
8-8 76.54%
9-9 69.30%
10-10 59.57%
J-J 46.96%
Q-Q 31.12%
K-K 11.67%
A-A 0.00%
While this chart is deliberately elementary and ignores many concepts critical to professional hold 'em, it nonetheless illustrates a profound truth. There isn't nearly as much difference between low ranks as there is between high ranks. Look at it this way. A pair of kings is much better than a pair of queens (and they're only one rank away from each other), but there's a much less dramatic difference between a pair of sevens and a pair of deuces (five ranks apart). Also, notice that, based on the simple premise, you're probably going to hate the flop unless you hold at least a pair of jacks. Good night.
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http://www.poker1.com/absolutenm/tem...d=123&zoneid=3
So his TT odds are slightly different than yours, but the essence is the same. This also drives quickly to the "make your set or fold" strategy that many people here have spoken of.
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Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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Thanks for that info dunk...I think moving forward the correct way to play TT is just to limp in unless I am first to the pot in late position. Then I will raise. But this hand should be played for set value most of the time.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lodogg
limp unless I am first to the pot in late position. Then I will raise.
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Don't let a loose limper before you cause fear if they often fold for a raise. Treat that like first in.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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TT is my second most profitable hand, behind AA, I think just cause I like it so much and play it too aggressively. I open raise with it from anywhere, occassionally re-raise it preflop (mostly shorthanded), and if an over comes on the flop I usually c-bet really hard, to truly find out where I'm at. It's just my style, but I PFR and C-bet 99 1010 and JJ very strong, just cause they are so vernerenabajblenadjkf ( <-- i can't spell that friggin word ). If I get resistance, after my large C-bet, then it's check/fold mode.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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bunthorne
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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TT is a useful hand. It is a medium pair and can make up into a straight more readily than other pairs apart from 55 - every straight must contain either a 5 or a T so TT is a hand of some potential for improvement (straight or trips) and is a good holding on its own.
In late position I raise with this preflop. If I am then reraised, however, I may play it or dump it depending on the game situation and my opponent's style of play. If I play and an overcard flops and my opponent bets, the TT goes into the muck - usually.
In early or middle position I will call with TT or maybe make a minimal raise - if having called I am raised I will call the raise, but if there is a reraise preflop as well as a raise the TT must be folded - two raising opponents preflop means that the TT must be behind to at least one of them.
On the flop, though, I regard TT along with most small pairs. No set usually means no bet, unless I have a draw as well as the pair of tens in which case I will play it, or if I flop trips - then the money goes in.
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