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hangchiong

09-18-2008, 04:34 PM Post subject: pocket queens problem

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 359

had some problems with queens,any help would be great,new here in cash games forums.thanks

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($3.15)
UTG ($6)
MP ($6.70)
CO ($3.35)
Hero (Button) ($8.55)
SB ($6)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, Q

UTG raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, Hero raises to $1.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.75) 9

, A

, 6

(2 players)
CO bets $2.25 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $2.75 | Rake: $0.10

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($17.75)
BB ($10)
Hero (UTG) ($20.60)
Button ($20.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, Q

Hero raises to $0.40, Button raises to $1.20, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.55) 5

, 4

, 10

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.10, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.55 | Rake: $0.10

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DaddyDeez

09-18-2008, 04:59 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: missoula, MT

Posts: 113

hand 1 seems ok to me. It depends on your villains stats and your reads on him though.

hand 2: i tend to 3 bet my QQ at this stakes quite aggresively, calling this seems -EV?? iono. As played i shove over on him with this flop, You must of had some amazing read on him to fold this??

I post nonconstructive piss

sarbox68

09-18-2008, 05:36 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

1. 3bet PF bigger... I'd prolly go to $1.50. At that point in time, calling what's left of CO's mini-stack on the flop becomes trivial... unless you got great reads that he's an uber-nit.

2. Why are you calling the 3b OOP if you're only going to fold to this type of board???... if that's the case, just fold to the 3b pre-flop. Without any kind of reads, this isn't ideal... you're OOP with an overpair, 2-outs to improve deep against the PF 3-bettor. I hate shoving over, 'cause you only get called by sh!t that pounds you... and risking $19.40 to win $4 in that scenario doesn't sit well with me. I'd prolly either bet out on this flop for $2, fold to a raise and re-eval on the Turn, or float him the flop and see what peels/what he does on the Turn. If he'll 3bet JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, AT you got great equity. If he's a rock only 3betting QQ+ who will value bet you all the way to the River, you're f-d. Again, depending how he plays, an A on the Turn may slow him down if he's sitting on KK and give you a shot at getting to SD cheaper... or it may just complete his AK. So give a brother some kinda readz... please....

pilipolio

09-18-2008, 05:51 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 50

Hand 1 fold is fine but as sarbox said, 3betting stronger and be prepared to call CO shove or flop shove is nicer

Hand 2 you under represented and estimated your hand, 3bet, bet or float flop are all options depending on reads

09-18-2008, 06:13 PM

#5 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Hand 2 - I shove over this flop every time if villain is a habitual 3-bettor from the CO/BTN. If villain is Tighty McNit I probably fold.

QQ can be a tough hand to play at times. It's not a hand I like to get all-in with at least until the turn but with some opponents you just can't help yourself.

Stacks

09-18-2008, 06:26 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

For everyone who has missed it in hand 2 we are 200bb deep. As sarbox said, and I paraphase, "uhhhh don't shove over on flop!"

Outlaw

09-18-2008, 07:22 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Impossible to give any concrete suggestions with no reads.. what are villain stats? Any history?

Hand 1 is not a strong move by villain.. a lot of the time he has pocket jacks /tens with a heart.. sometimes he has a weak ace.. I probably call here if his af is over 2.0. 90% of the time I snap call.

Hand 2 is a 4bet preflop for me if he 3bets 10+, if he never 3bets its a preflop fold mostly... if he calls your 4bet i float flop and reraise or shove turn if it isnt a king or ace.. if he didnt shove preflop he almost never has KK/AA.. you can shove for value against his JJ/AK/AQ.

Remember to define your hand more preflop.. then you guess less postflop.

Tj

09-18-2008, 08:04 PM

#8 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

For everyone who has missed it in hand 2 we are 200bb deep. As sarbox said, and I paraphase, "uhhhh don't shove over on flop!"

Doh! Didn't notice that, my bad. It is 4-handed so we could be looking at AK here or possibly an under pair.

Stacks

09-18-2008, 08:06 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Remember to define your hand more preflop.. then villains can guess less postflop.

ducy I fyp?

If you make a play that "defines your range" as you like to put it, then any competent villain should be able to play mistake free against you.

edit: I'm not yet arguing that a 4b isn't the right play, I'm just staying that to do it so you can "define your range" is the wrong logic to be using. You don't want villain to know your range. There will be times when 4betting is correct here, but you first need to determine in this instance what you are wanting to accomplish with a 4b. That is if you are doing it for value or as a bluff. If it's for value go ahead and do it and get allin preflop. If it is as a bluff, you shouldn't do this with QQ because it is such a good hand that you shouldn't "waste" it. Instead you should do it with worse hands.

Against an unknown I don't like a 4b preflop, and would simply call the 3b as OP did. Reasoning I don't like a 4b is if for instance this villain is 3betting light (which we don't know since he is unknown), then he will likely fold all hands we beat to a 4b, and only hands that beat us will stay in facing the 4b. Therefore, while we have defined our range, as you like to put it, we have also folded out worse hands, and kept in better, which will put in a shitty spot on any flop without a Q. Not to mention, that unless you intend to stack off preflop with QQ, then a 4b isn't ideal as it has so much value in just calling that we should stray from 4b bluffing with QQ (that is folding to a 5b from villain).

But by just calling his 3b we aren't narrowing his range like we would with a 4b; however, the range we narrow to with a 4b is a range we fair badly against. On the flop I think this is a check/call against an unknown. Against a massive nit that we don't think is 3betting less than absolute value, I'm okay with a call preflop and a c/f on the flop as we had set mining odds. But against an unknown I can't imagine folding an overpair to one bet on the flop here.

sarbox68

09-18-2008, 08:44 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Remember to define your hand more preflop.. then villains can guess less postflop.

ducy I fyp?

If you make a play that "defines your range" as you like to put it, then any competent villain should be able to play mistake free against you.

And before you 4-bet, think about what it does to your flop plan... There's really only 3 vil responses to think through...
1. He 5-bet/shoves over you. Now your playing 200bb stacks for QQ PF, as calling just a 5-bet will effectively commit you to the hand. This obv solves your position problem, but is QQ in your 200bb stack-off range vs. this vil?
2. He flats your 4-bet... and you get this board. What more do you now know about vil's hand? I'd suggest not much... except he's prolly in the upper part of his 3-bet range, you're probably in bad shape, the pot's bloated, and any flop bet from you pretty much commits you.
3. He folds. Congrats... your 4-bet folded out the part of his range that you would likely have been beating on this board. Yes, you took down the pot, but you also lost value vs. JJ or AK/AQ/AJ,KQ, etc.

IMO, none of these potential outcomes are good proof points for 4-betting...

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