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Pocket Piars, Overated?

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wellrounded08

08-18-2008, 05:04 AM Post subject: Pocket Piars, Overated?

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I hear Advice that suggests raising any pocket pair from any position, why? The reason I say that is this:

Lets say I'm UTG w/ 22. Now, I could raise 4xBB and this could happen:
>I'm reraised(beyond the appropriate odds to make it worth calling)
>I get all folds
>The flop brings no two
>The flop brings a two, but it's all suited.
>The flop brings a two, but it's a very straight drawy board.
>The flop brings a two, but any other set 33+ beats my little two's.
>The flop brings a two and brings nothing for my Opp. to play with.
>The flop brings a two, and I actually win a stack.

So, as stated by some respectable members, the 10:1 rule, should be more like 25:1. Now,(and this is going to be very important as well.) I don't know who my caller is going to be, or how many for that matter. It may easily be the short stack w/ only 30xBB. And if that is the case, I've already exceeded well beyond 25:1, hell 10:1 doesn't even apply any more, because I already raised 4xBB.

When I bet UTG with the Small PP. I'm not only betting in hopes that I will hit my set, but that I'll hit my set as well as my opp. hitting a hand worth playing with, while not better than my own.<-this seems a very important easy to miss concept to me.

So why am I raising? I'm not supposed to open limp according to advice, so I'm supposed to raise. I have found 1 reason only, and that is so that to all the micro-limit players who cant see out side of their HUD sunglasses won't see my very limited PFR #.

This is my little fishy question, I'm not trying to state that I have made some revelation that no-one else has, I'm simply explaining the way I'm seeing it, and asking how should if at all this view be corrected or altered. Thanks for any input.

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Fnord

08-18-2008, 05:31 AM

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Folding 22-55 EP in an online ring game is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Biglines

08-18-2008, 07:55 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Play low pp's out of position for set value only. Limp in with them and try to see a cheap flop.

AdamThePirate

08-18-2008, 07:59 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Biglines

Play low pp's out of position for set value only. Limp in with them and try to see a cheap flop.

This is pretty much my strategy at the moment.

daven

08-18-2008, 09:25 AM Post subject: Re: Pocket Piars, Overated?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

I hear Advice that suggests raising any pocket pair from any position, why?

This is my little fishy question, I'm not trying to state that I have made some revelation that no-one else has, I'm simply explaining the way I'm seeing it, and asking how should if at all this view be corrected or altered. Thanks for any input.

it#s not a revelation - has been discussed ad infinitum before. As Fnord states, folding 22-55 from EP is fine. Reverse implied odds etc. You didn#t state one of the possibilities of a missed flop though, that is that you often take down a 10bb pot with a c-bet regardless of whether or not you hit - cos your range hits...

BUT - and this is important - you arrived at an important concept quickly and through your own examination of the game, and your reasoning is sound. Very nice work!!! keep up the poker thought - you#ll go well...[/b]

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Erpel

08-18-2008, 09:29 AM

#6 (permalink)

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I wanted to say what daven said. This isn't new, but it's correct and the fact that you think about the game and arrive at these conclusions is a good thing.

Edited to add:
Note that while a set of 3's beat your 2's your 2's still beat someone with AK who hit two pair on an AK2 flop. A set of 2's may be weaker than a set of 3's - but it's not outright weak. It's still three of a kind.

Stack sizes is a good point. In my table/seat selection these days I go for stack size first - preferred no stack shorter than 80bb - then vpip for looseness - then average pot size for juicyness. Table statistics are to an extent based on the hands dealt, so an average pot may not be indicative at all. At least a table with deep stacks can DEVELOP into a juicy game. A table with shallow stacks cannot.

wellrounded08

08-18-2008, 10:46 AM Post subject: Re: Pocket Piars, Overated?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

You didn#t state one of the possibilities of a missed flop though, that is that you often take down a 10bb pot with a c-bet regardless of whether or not you hit - cos your range hits...

>That's very true,(duh) Thanks for pointing that out.

BUT - and this is important - you arrived at an important concept quickly and through your own examination of the game, and your reasoning is sound. Very nice work!!! keep up the poker thought - you#ll go well...

Thanks alot. Erpel too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord

Folding 22-55 EP in an online ring game is fine.

Very nice, It's like a weights been lifted, seriously.

>Where if at all does open limping come into play? I mean, it seems highly not recommended alot, I certainly don't mind limping behind preflop but opening?

Painter

08-18-2008, 03:41 PM

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Hi All ,ive been lurking here for some time and have decided to make a contirbution .
I personally raise pps in all positions, as I see it there are good and bad things about raising with them in early position.
On the plus side :
1 Everyone folds and you pick up the blinds.
2 you build the pot if you hit.
3 you can Cbet.
4 you are adding to your range in EP which will make it more difficult for your opponents to put you on a hand.
On the negative side :
1 You may get 3bet and not have the correct odds to call.
2 You are likely to be out of position , and few flops that miss will look attractive when cbetting.
As for open limping , at micro stakes you will get away with it but if an opponent who I don't think is an idiot limp/calls in early position the first hand i think of is PP.

Warpe

08-18-2008, 04:09 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Painter

you are adding to your range in EP which will make it more difficult for your opponents to put you on a hand.

^^^this.

Players tend to look at the profitability of small pocket pairs in isolation from their other hands. Over time, I've come to the conclusion that manipulating your PFR% and AF is reason enough to raise small pockets, esp. as you get higher in stakes. The payoff that comes with the increased action you get on your monsters, while hard to quantify, is nevertheless definitely there.

raising>limping>folding, imho, as a general rule.

Exceptions would be having multiple shortstacks, preflop calling stations, aggressive 3-bettors or habitual c-bet floaters downstream, which is when I revert to limping some of the time.

bigspenda73

08-18-2008, 04:11 PM

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I fold 22-66 in EP and I still maintain a loose PF range.

I am not a fan of seeing a cheap flop with these hands. I like to raise PF and build a pot because if I do hit my set, I would like a lot of money going into the middle, and that's much easier if the pot is 10BBs on the flop and not 3BBs.

10BB pot
bet 7BBs on flop
bet 20BBs on turn
shove river

3BB pot
bet 3BB on flop
bet 7BB on turn
bet 15BB on river

spoonitnow

08-18-2008, 04:18 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamThePirate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biglines

Play low pp's out of position for set value only. Limp in with them and try to see a cheap flop.

This is pretty much my strategy at the moment.

Which is fine if you balance open limping other hands as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

wellrounded08

08-18-2008, 10:11 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Alright, for those of you who will make the connection, I'm going to make a quick refference.

While Shania(sp?) is improved with PP raising, could there possibly be better cards to do this with? More flop loving hands. I mean, the basis of my point is infact that while shania is improved by PP's It seems a far too great price to pay at micro-limits. It's hard to miss/ get beat out 1 in 15 times.(we'll go ahead and take it down because of the point daven and others made about taking the pot with c-bets.)

Lets assume I'm taking Low PP out of my EP raising range, This would of coarse make Shania a far too intimidating image for anyone to call, I could throw in however, Suited connectors and this seem to me would give me a better chance long term at Micro-limits to hit more flops, while getting a showdown when I'm hold 89s after I raised from UTG is great for my image, and could expect more callers when holding AA KK etc. And this still give's me the C-bet capability of PP's should if a A,K,or Q show up on the flop.

And as far as limping, While I may get away with it at these levels, I still would have a EP limping range of only PP's because it simply wouldn't be profitable(or even noticed by 90% of players) to throw in a few bigger hands into my limping range.

bigspenda73

08-18-2008, 10:16 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Shania does not and should not exist in the Beg. forum.

sarbox68

08-18-2008, 10:43 PM

#14 (permalink)

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wtf is a shania?

bigspenda73

08-18-2008, 11:00 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Easy definition

Shania=balancing your range

wellrounded08

08-18-2008, 11:09 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Shania does not and should not exist in the Beg. forum.

Why exactly? If you don't mind.(I'm not trying to be an ass, it's a straight up question.)

But for the sake of being heard,

Quote:

While my EP Raise Range is improved with PP raising, could there possibly be better cards to do this with? More flop loving hands. I mean, the basis of my point is infact that while my EP Raise Range is improved by PP's It seems a far too great price to pay at micro-limits. It's hard to miss/ get beat out 1 in 15 times.(we'll go ahead and take it down because of the point daven and others made about taking the pot with c-bets.)

Lets assume I'm taking Low PP out of my EP raising range, This would of coarse make my EP Raise Range a far too intimidating image for anyone to call, I could throw in however, Suited connectors and this seem to me would give me a better chance long term at Micro-limits to hit more flops, while getting a showdown when I'm hold 89s after I raised from UTG is great for my image, and could expect more callers when holding AA KK etc. And this still give's me the C-bet capability of PP's should if a A,K,or Q show up on the flop.

And as far as limping, While I may get away with it at these levels, I still would have a EP limping range of only PP's because it simply wouldn't be profitable(or even noticed by 90% of players) to throw in a few bigger hands into my limping range.

badgers

08-19-2008, 01:19 AM

#17 (permalink)

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wellrounded what is the point of "balancing your range" when nobody is going to notice wtf you are doing?

3k post - Return of the blog!

wellrounded08

08-19-2008, 01:53 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Mindset, General thought process. My main goal out of poker is to make money, no bracelets no awards, just money. And while it does make sense to play at these levels very strictly, I don't want to become so focused on micro-limit play and style, that it effects my ability to move up in the limits effectively. Not Quickly, effectively. I do however understand what your saying, Why would I do something that won't help me at the stakes I'm playing at? And, being more experienced I will ask you in hopes of an honest answer,(that goes for all great grinders around here), should I stop and focus purely on the level of opponents i'm playing?

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