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Anosmic
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08-24-2006, 09:19 PM
Post subject: Pocket Pairs- what's smartest?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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So I'm thinking about pocket pairs at the moment.
Yesterday I was on a fairly tight table where most of my pfrs would win the blinds.
In that environment I started raising all my PPs almost regardless of position and if not taking it there, quite often on the flop.
So PPs are good. I like them. They are my friends. But I'm not sure what is more positive EV, on tight tables, raising PPs or calling with them.
It seems to me that the advantage of the raise is that if you maintain iniative onto the flop you can frequently take the pot with a c-bet. Other players are usually in the mindset that if they don't hit their hand then they have or get out because of your aggression.
This doesn't seem quite the same if you limp in pre-flop and then suddenly bet.
So you win more pots with the raises, I'd say.
But the trouble is if you are holding 99 and the flop comes up AK9 and you bet then you're probably going to have hard time building up a pot).
Basically it seems tha with a small PP you're betting to get them to fold and then if you hit you're suddenly wanting them to call you down.
I should also add that I normally play PPs passively. So if someone raises 3xbb preflop I'll call and then set-or-forget. If I've raised pre-flop I've stuck with the hand; which brings its won nice pots but risks losing when they just don't believe you... (and have cards).
The other thing is, how likely do you have be to really do damage to their stack? If they're playing timidly there's a chance you may just see a few minbets and a fold to anything more. If the time you hit doesn't make up for the seven times you miss then suddenly the whole idea of limping PPs seems -EV.
BTW, this must have been discussed befoer but I can't see anything when I search.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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'So you win more pots with the raises, I'd say.
But the trouble is if you are holding 99 and the flop comes up AK9 and you bet then you're probably going to have hard time building up a pot). '
If you've PFR and get called or you call a PFR with 99 this is exactly the flop you want. You should be able to build pots with an A and K on the flop.
If you do hit trips on the river just dont let them draw out if OESD come or FD's, bet them agressively.
Alternatively if a pretty unscary flop comes like rainbow AK9 just bet out on them and hope to get called if you're in EP, if you're near CO its a toss between smooth calling and raising. Definitely check raise/re-raise the turn and the river if it isnt too scary, dependant on position.
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
Posts: 1,000
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On tight tables I like raising because it can lead to big pots fast if you hit.
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My sig is too much for you to handle.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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you need to dvelop ways to play the turn card and build big pots when you add pps to your raising range.
Im sure renton will post about the money line in this thread, raise a pp, flop a set and bet, check raise the turn, and push whats left in on the river.
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Im sure renton will post about the money line in this thread, raise a pp, flop a set and bet, check raise the turn, and push whats left in on the river.
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Against an aggro donkey, the c-bet flop then check-raise turn works wonders with any hand you're willing to felt. Against a passive player, I just keep on betting.
Regarding the OP, If the opposition are bad enough to stack off with crap in an unraised pot, then limping is fine. Against decent players, raising has to be better.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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What about in position when you are not the PFR, flop a set and face a c-bet? I'd like to hear some raise flop vs. raise turn arguments.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 2_Thumbs_Up
What about in position when you are not the PFR, flop a set and face a c-bet? I'd like to hear some raise flop vs. raise turn arguments.
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Raise flop if it is A-high or if it is low-card and an overpair is likely given villains action. Also raise flop if there are apparent draws, because most people know that aggressive players like to raise draws.
Just call the flop and raise the turn against nits who lay down overpairs way too easily and on extremely dry boards (e.g. K 9 4 rainbow).
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Your theory sounds good, but in practice I have made much more $$ at a better rate raising all PPs from all position. Its hard to build a pot to where you are all in in an unraised pot without looking too suspicious.
I get stacks from players with KQs when i have a set on a T7K board more often than it should happen. Players call my cbet, or even min raise thinking I was just missing on a cbet. Then its all in time shortly after.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
you need to dvelop ways to play the turn card and build big pots when you add pps to your raising range.
Im sure renton will post about the money line in this thread, raise a pp, flop a set and bet, check raise the turn, and push whats left in on the river.
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Is that the money line?? I hardly ever play it this way. I prefer getting sets all in on flop/turn as there are less cards, less of a chance for a flush/str8 out there. People will then call when they are behind and chase.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TerryToma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
you need to dvelop ways to play the turn card and build big pots when you add pps to your raising range.
Im sure renton will post about the money line in this thread, raise a pp, flop a set and bet, check raise the turn, and push whats left in on the river.
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Is that the money line?? I hardly ever play it this way. I prefer getting sets all in on flop/turn as there are less cards, less of a chance for a flush/str8 out there. People will then call when they are behind and chase. |
whether you get all in on the turn or the river depends solely on the amount of participation your villain has in the hand. If he doesn't put in a raise or two somewhere, then you aren't getting all in for full stacks until the river.
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