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homeboy604
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 121
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^^^^ real nice pot there.
the 66 hand i might do every once in awhile, but i find it just gets you into more trouble then its worth.
the only time ill make a play like this, is if i see a bunch of loose players limping and im in the CO or on the button. that way you might take down 5 or 6 bb's with no contest.
i would never try this against a tight player tho. you have no idea where you're at on the flop.
are you running PT with pokerace ?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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ya I got PAce
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by homeboy604
why are you raising 66 like this here?
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...then not raising your set on the flop? |
Homeboy: Why not? 50% of the time this takes down the pot. Of the other 50% of the time, I take this down on the flop mostly. Do you never make plays like this? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Warpe: Would you honestly feel a need to defend top set on a flop like this?
I don't think I played this hand incorrectly. Please tell me if I am wrong here, because I probably am (otherwise I wouldn't post the hand). |
About the 66 hand, like Warpe said, don't be raising 66 preflop. And if you do, raise the flop. Not because you want to defend your set (though thats good too) but because the opp is putting you on an overpair here, he has a good hand he wants to be raised. So oblige him and disguise your hand.
Btw set over set is a beat.
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
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I agree with Renton here. I think raising lower pocket pairs sometimes is good. Depends on the table texture of course--I wouldn't do it at a table full of maniac laggs, but at a table full of weak tighties it's definitely +EV.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Renton:
The biggest change I have made over the past six months is to never slowplay less than top boat.
I raise the shit out of every two pair+ hand that I hit. To make this less transparent and make much more money I also raise teh shit out of every nut flush draw, combo draw, and straight draw (OE or gutshot) that includes overs when I don't believe opponent has more than top pair.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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An example of how I reason about stuff like this:
Say you have 67s and your flush falls on the flop. At this point everyone, even the ones that hit something nice, will be like "would someone have the flush?.." It depends a bit on expectations of how my opponents will play, the actual flop cards etc, but generally I will slowplay this on the flop. So either just check (call any low raise) or throw a ridiculously low sum that'll fold no-one to build the pot a little bit.
The downside is that someone holding an overcard to my suit can get a higher flush. He only has 16% that this will happen though. The upsides are twofold. First, if I bet heavy on the turn, people will start to think most of all how the turn card will have improved my hand. Second, if nothing had anything satisfactory on the flop, I'm kinda hoping someone got an improvement on their hand by the turn card that they are willing to put some money on the line for, so call (or even reraise!) my raises.
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Off5th
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ewa Beach
Posts: 180
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
***** Hand History for Game 3866663489 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 01, 14:54:23 ET 2006
Table Irish Luck (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: chuckincharg ( $100 )
Seat 3: yankee1010 ( $127.49 )
Seat 4: skrub2tm ( $334.41 )
Seat 5: SandM14 ( $47.89 )
Seat 6: crow_milo9 ( $46.45 )
Seat 8: RyRy713 ( $132.24 )
Seat 9: kirbsterAA ( $233.79 )
Seat 10: PhillyHoops ( $37.88 )
Seat 7: Renton555 ( $109.20 )
Seat 1: bandit100 ( $101.35 )
RyRy713 posts small blind [$0.50].
kirbsterAA posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 6h 6s ]
>You have options at Jackhammer (No DP) Table!.
PhillyHoops folds.
bandit100 folds.
chuckincharg calls [$1].
yankee1010 calls [$1].
skrub2tm folds.
SandM14 folds.
crow_milo9 calls [$1].
>You have options at Table 96041 Table!.
Renton555 raises [$7].
RyRy713 folds.
>You have options at Table 96535 Table!.
kirbsterAA calls [$6].
chuckincharg folds.
yankee1010 folds.
crow_milo9 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 6c, 5d ]
kirbsterAA bets [$8].
Renton555 calls [$8].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
kirbsterAA bets [$5].
Renton555 raises [$15].
>You have options at Jackhammer (No DP) Table!.
kirbsterAA raises [$25].
>You have options at Table 96535 Table!.
Renton555 is all-In.
kirbsterAA calls [$64.20].
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
kirbsterAA shows [ 9s, 9d ] three of a kind, nines.
Renton555 doesn't show [ 6h, 6s ] three of a kind, sixes.
kirbsterAA wins $218.90 from the main pot with three of a kind, nines.
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This hand I would've pushed-all in on the flop. Your set is too delicate on a straight board like this. I would take my chances on a donk call with a one card straight draw. You just calling on flop when the board is already cordinated like this gives your opponent to suck you out with one just one card.
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"I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them."
-Aokrangly
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Off5th
This hand I would've pushed-all in on the flop. Your set is too delicate on a straight board like this. I would take my chances on a donk call with a one card straight draw. You just calling on flop when the board is already cordinated like this gives your opponent to suck you out with one just one card.
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That is the most results oriented answer ever. No offense, but you must not like money if you are willing to push your opponent off a marginal hand on the flop when you have top set.
Villain is not lag, and its a raised pot. I don't see villain calling 7xbb with any hand that has a 4 in it (except maybe 44). I knew that he was 22:1 to suck out on the turn, and I was willing to let him catch his 22:1 for a pot sized bet. He didn't get the implied odds he needed for the play, so in abstract reality, I didn't lose money here. I'd play this hand identically if it happened again, except maybe not raising preflop.
Can I get some back up here from someone to make sure I am not crazy?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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You are crazy.
We have to fastplay this hand not because we think villain may have a 4, but because so many turn cards can kill our action. Getting money in while villain's hand still looks somewhat appealing is the most important issue.
What if the turn card had been a 2, 4, 7, 10, J, Q, K, or A?
How much money do you expect villain to really put in the pot then?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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You are crazy.
We have to fastplay this hand not because we think villain may have a 4, but because so many turn cards can kill our action. Getting money in while villain's hand still looks somewhat appealing is the most important issue.
What if the turn card had been a 2, 4, 7, 10, J, Q, K, or A?
How much money do you expect villain to really put in the pot then?
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Ok reraising here maybe, I see your point. But why on earth would you push this flop?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Oh I definitely dont agree with a push.
I would reraise 3x
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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He calls 7BB OOP, so you might put him on a medium PP. Raise flop and hope for 99-JJ to not believe you have QQ+. Although calling and raising the turn isn't horrible IMO.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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so in other words, this was a generally unprofitable hand for me in general. If I raised the flop he would have folded almost doubtlessly assuming he's half intelligent (I raised preflop and raised the flop, 99 can't be good here). I think I stood to win a small pot here until the 9 hit.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
so in other words, this was a generally unprofitable hand for me in general. If I raised the flop he would have folded almost doubtlessly assuming he's half intelligent (I raised preflop and raised the flop, 99 can't be good here). I think I stood to win a small pot here until the 9 hit.
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Yeah, basically my point. To me, calling here is no different that limping AA - don't do it. You have the best hand so bet it and see how much villain likes his hand now. Pop it up to $24 and you take down $24 for your trouble. Made straight, flush, boat...different story, but a set's vulnerable so make 'em pay to beat you.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
but a set's vulnerable so make 'em pay to beat you.
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But we just established that the set isn't vulnerable to villian's range. He's got a two-outer, period.
We're just scared of cards that kill the action.
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joshuadzl
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 287
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I haven't read the entire thread Renton, just one thing that always helps me when I'm thinking like a donk - a short break. Just a couple days. Although my last break was a couple months. It helps. I know other players (jfish for example) do the same thing. Just a thought. 
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johnnyBuz
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
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I think you went all-in with KQ a bit prematurely. I don't always raise with AK, and if I am raised out of position I'll just call with AK.
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Liter of cola.
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Off5th
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ewa Beach
Posts: 180
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Off5th
This hand I would've pushed-all in on the flop. Your set is too delicate on a straight board like this. I would take my chances on a donk call with a one card straight draw. You just calling on flop when the board is already cordinated like this gives your opponent to suck you out with one just one card.
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That is the most results oriented answer ever. No offense, but you must not like money if you are willing to push your opponent off a marginal hand on the flop when you have top set.
Villain is not lag, and its a raised pot. I don't see villain calling 7xbb with any hand that has a 4 in it (except maybe 44). I knew that he was 22:1 to suck out on the turn, and I was willing to let him catch his 22:1 for a pot sized bet. He didn't get the implied odds he needed for the play, so in abstract reality, I didn't lose money here. I'd play this hand identically if it happened again, except maybe not raising preflop.
Can I get some back up here from someone to make sure I am not crazy? |
Sorry bout that Renton. I overlooked the fact he wasn't LAG. The only reason why I said to push here is because I've done in the past and it has worked out great for me in my case. I've always had someone call my all-in with their draws and missed, therefore I gain much profit from it. I would definitely reraise the flop 3x though. If he folds, he folds. At least you win a small pot.
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"I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them."
-Aokrangly
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
but a set's vulnerable so make 'em pay to beat you.
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But we just established that the set isn't vulnerable to villian's range. He's got a two-outer, period. |
...so make him pay to chase it.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I think its weak to make someone pay more than pot for a 22:1 draw.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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renton,
try to play your awesome hands faster and your one pair hands slower.
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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Look, some will disagree here, but I've made a lot of money playing 100 and your raises w/ marginal hands like AJ and KQ and crappy hands like A3 are just donk. I dont want to be wordy here, so here it is briefly.
These hands only win you small pots and cost you big ones.
I know that at the 25 dollar limit you get called by A7 and K 10 (even bigger donks), but that doesnt mean that you are playing good poker.
Now with that being said, you seem like a smart guy (you are trying to improve your game), so take the advice of most people on this board. Especially take the advice of the people that actually play 100 or 200 and are successful. Finally, take this advice. Aggressiveness post flop (and folding when pushed back) will KILL the 100 game. Aggressiveness preflop (without premium hands or the correct table texture) will get you killed.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dpe8598
Look, some will disagree here, but I've made a lot of money playing 100 and your raises w/ marginal hands like AJ and KQ and crappy hands like A3 are just donk. I dont want to be wordy here, so here it is briefly.
These hands only win you small pots and cost you big ones.
I know that at the 25 dollar limit you get called by A7 and K 10 (even bigger donks), but that doesnt mean that you are playing good poker.
Now with that being said, you seem like a smart guy (you are trying to improve your game), so take the advice of most people on this board. Especially take the advice of the people that actually play 100 or 200 and are successful. Finally, take this advice. Aggressiveness post flop (and folding when pushed back) will KILL the 100 game. Aggressiveness preflop (without premium hands or the correct table texture) will get you killed.
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aggressiveness preflop in position makes alot of money. raising AJ utg is bad, but raising T8s 7bb on the button behind a bunch of limpers is +EV on most tables.
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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Raising 10-8 or similar hands after a ton of limpers can be a +ev play. Personally, I think its an ideal hand to just call and be in a limped pot.
Either way, raising 10-8 late is much better than A-J early, that is unless there are only 1 or 2 in the pot, then I like to push a little.
Anyway, I still stick by my theory that you will take down way more uncontested pots post flop by throwing in a raise after calling or limping, than by c-betting.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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heres a quote splashpots.com, a site created by one of the best players in the higher games on party.
"The Key to playing No Limit is to constantly be forcing your opponents into tough decisions, while keeping your decisions simple. Leave them enough rope.
The Button is like the door man of a night club, he decides if the limpers in front of him will get to see the flop or not.
You are on the button in a ten handed 10/20 NL game and are dealt 54s or A3s or T8, 4 players limp to you, and you make it $160.
The key to this move is that some of time you are going to have AA when you make this raise. When you do have AA, it is more likely you will get action then if you have never been raising in this position. However, even when your opponents do play with you, they still need to play passively because they are playing for all their chips if you do have AA: When you don't have AA, you aren't going to put your stack in the middle. So when someone calls with 22, their implied odds are actually horrific. You keep your opponents playing passively, afraid and guessing. By being the aggressor, you are in control of the hand. Every time you raise or bet or show strength your message to your opponents is that your hand is stronger then theirs, and this is intimidating because the plan truth is that when a players hand is stronger, they bet.
Your play from this point forward is not overly complicated, its actually quite simple. Your opponents have defined their hands up until this point as not being strong enough to warrant a raise.
If they reraise you, then it is fairly obvious that they slow-played a strong hand, you have no decision to make. You quickly fold. Next hand.
When you get called by the first person who limped your warning bells should be ringing. It is more likely that the first person who limped is now cold-calling with a big hand then if the second limper calls your raise. When a player is not the first limper, they are basically saying: My hand is not strong enough to raise with here. I want to see a Multi-way Flop. We do not want this to happen.
If a non-first limper calls you and you don't have a read on them as a tight player, they are most likely calling with a pair (most NL players are in love with a pair, the holy possibility of flopping a set) or he is calling with a hand like AJ or KQ which he will not play aggressively post-flop, how can he when you raised $160 representing a monster?
Depending on the flop, its usually a good idea to go ahead and fire again about half of the pot. You'll take it down a high percentage of the time for it to be profitable.
Think about the concept of what I have written and apply it to your game. But don'tover do it."
http://www.splashpots.com/oct23.html
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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A good article that illustrates the value of raising in position. Also note that if someone calls his preflop raise and shows strength, he gets out. This is my point, in todays game, people think that a raise from position is a transparent play and dont respect you much post flop, but if you limp and fire out, they are putting you on a hand.
Long story short, a mixture of well timed preflop raises and saavy postflop play is the way to go. But don't raise w/ AJ and KQ OOP. LOL
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Gabe, do you still do this at a table of calling stations? I'm thinking no, right?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i think so, although i havent played full ring with 5+ calling stations in a while.
maybe i'll run an experiment tonight.
ilikeaces posted lots of hands about raising in position in the $100 and $200 games in a thread called 'aces rambling thread' or something like that. search for it, it might be helpful.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Aggression good.
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Murd0c
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 169
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Fnord don't be so verbose. :P
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Currently at UB playing $50 NLHE 6max.
Bankroll: ~$1900 (Almost BR'ed for 100NL.)
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