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LuckySlevin
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10-27-2008, 09:34 PM
Post subject: playing for stacks? how did I play this hand?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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Please let me know your thoughts on how I played this hand,
This guy had entered two pots (been playing for five hands) and had Cbet on both occasions.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($1.90)
Hero (BB) ($10.85)
UTG ($9.70)
MP1 ($5.10)
MP2 ($5.75)
CO ($10.25)
Button ($5.15)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J , J
3 folds, CO raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30
Flop: ($0.85) 4 , 3, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, CO raises to $1.80, Hero raises to $2.70, CO raises to $9.85 (All-In), Hero calls $7.15
Turn: ($20.55) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($20.55) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $20.55 | Rake: $1
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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Aces or Kings, right?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Take it Doyle, take it!
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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I'll let you know soon - don't want to influence the replies 
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Why aren't you 3 betting with JJ on the button?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Tell me the difference between his cbetting range on the flop and his calling range. Also, what do you think his range is preflop?
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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I'm about 90% sure you got stacked.
You are beaten by AA, KK, QQ, 55, 44, 33 on the flop. He raised preflop so it puts all of these in his range. If he's already entered two flops of 5 then he might be loose or just have a good run of cards. You may have run into a donk who is stupid enough to try to bluff with AK but in my experience this is rare, especially since he 4 bet you on the flop. If he's dumb enough to push with air then add him to your buddy list and keep playing against him.
I would have reraised preflop to about $1. PSB is okay on flop but then you minreraised and he pushed. If you knew you were going to push anyway why not be the one to do it?
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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thanks, well - he was in the CO so his PF range I thought would be something like this. any pp, AJ+, QK+.
I thought if he had made a set on the flop he'd want to try to extract some value from me so thouht he would be more likely to call a 3bet rather than shove. I actually put him on a bluff with two overcards, or any PP. Not sure how close / bad that estimation is?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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The CO range you are giving him is too tight. I 3bet to $1.20ish preflop. As played, I c/c the flop.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
thanks, well - he was in the CO so his PF range I thought would be something like this. any pp, AJ+, QK+.
I thought if he had made a set on the flop he'd want to try to extract some value from me so thouht he would be more likely to call a 3bet rather than shove. I actually put him on a bluff with two overcards, or any PP. Not sure how close / bad that estimation is?
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How bad was it? You already have admitted twice that low pp's were in his range.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Decisions matter, results don't.
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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he hit the straight on the flop he was holding 67(o)
and thanks for getting me to post my rangings kmind... I'll start doing that with every hand I post - I'm sure I'll learn as much from that, as I will the actual advice on how I played the hand, being as the two are so intricately linked.
thanks all for the input - much help.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Dude, isn't your bankroll like $31?
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Why aren't you 3 betting with JJ on the button?
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because he's in the bb ldo
i don't really see a problem stacking off with jj here at 10nl
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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learn your ABC poker. It's not just stacking off, but how you go about it. The only thing I like about this hand is the CIB/c.
raise pre
if he's cbet 2/2 why would you donk bet? Let him cbet, then raise.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Dude, isn't your bankroll like $31?
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Wish I had thought about this first and not wasted my time answering.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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Spenda yes it was but has increased a litle since then, thanks for the advice earlier and today btw - very much appreciated.
Swig to get to your comment, your time isn't wasted, just because I'm playing 10nl doesn't mean I'm not seeking to improve my playing abilities. I've stated the reasons why I'm playing 10nl in my blog... Bankroll was $60 after yesterdays 300 hands, and this mornings 300 hands single tabling- but I took a couple of bashes this evening so far, this hand being one of them and another I'll post in my blog tonight, I'm clawing it back though, I knew it wasn't going to be all an upward trend. Just playing as solid as I can. If need be I can deposit another 50/60 in a couple of days as also mentioned in blog.
Thanks again for the advice, I know that it frustrates many of you that I've decided to play 10nl, and I'm sorry for that - but I have to make the judgement on what stake to play, taking everyones advice on board. I'm not in an ideal BR position I know, but 2nl was just sending my game backwards, I could feel it.
I appreciate everyones time that has commented on and who continues to comment on the hands / questions I post.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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I'm still 3 betting JJ, under most circumstances, unless villain is a rock, and especially when the raiser is in the CO.
Maybe that's wrong in cash play but JJ is a premo hand and a damn sight better than most hands, let alone most CO raising hands. And I am talking about 3 betting, not stacking off.
If this is wrong, please let me know.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
he hit the straight on the flop he was holding 67(o)
thanks all for the input - much help.
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I hope you made notes on that and will find him again. You will make money off of him in the long run when he doesn't flop that straight with his garbage.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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I forgot to add, I used to just call with QQ and JJ to raises until I had it drummed into me (from a forum I used to frequent) to reraise with these hands - even stacking off wasn't completely out of the question.
If this is wrong..........
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
2nl was just sending my game backwards, I could feel it.
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Unpossible.
You're still making absolutely fundamental mistakes and I'm not convinced you are really willing to listen, think and improve. You're trying to skip the learning ABC poker step and that's why you're even more doomed to fail than you were before, IMO.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
I'm still 3 betting JJ, under most circumstances, unless villain is a rock, and especially when the raiser is in the CO.
Maybe that's wrong in cash play but JJ is a premo hand and a damn sight better than most hands, let alone most CO raising hands. And I am talking about 3 betting, not stacking off.
If this is wrong, please let me know.
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Perfect.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
he hit the straight on the flop he was holding 67(o)
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I hope you made notes on that and will find him again. You will make money off of him in the long run when he doesn't flop that straight with his garbage. |
This is very very wrong. First, he did nothing wrong in this hand, by any applicable measure. Second, it's called implied odds.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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Swig I'm not trying to skip learning ABC poker, but I'm also not going to argue with you or try to force my position any more, take it for what you will my friend.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
I'm still 3 betting JJ, under most circumstances, unless villain is a rock, and especially when the raiser is in the CO.
Maybe that's wrong in cash play but JJ is a premo hand and a damn sight better than most hands, let alone most CO raising hands. And I am talking about 3 betting, not stacking off.
If this is wrong, please let me know.
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not wrong at all, just wanted to point out he couldn't 3bet from on the button this hand cuz he was in the bb 
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Fwiw, both 3betting here and calling is +ev. I choose which I do depending on the opponent (reads/stats/history). If he has been stealing a lot I should be 3betting him often to protect my blinds (or calling, and c/ring etc.), so I could 3bet here and expect to be called by weaker hands. But also by calling we keep the pot smaller while OOP, and keep his range wide, in which we beat a large majority of that range. So imo, you can go either way.
However, if you are just calling, then I don't like donk betting here at all really. You allow him to toss his whiffed overs, and play back when you are beat.
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bigteif
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 116
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I don't like the donk bet here but I would go for a c/r looking to get it in if you think he'll get it in with any overs.
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I wouldn't 3b against a very tight opponent. First, because he a has tighter opening range so we might not even be beatin his range, second, he might dump hands like TT that we would get value from on this flop.
but I generally 3b here because I'm OOP, it looks like a steal and I don't want to offer implied odds
on the flop I'll check raise since I saw him cbet, might as well take his extra bet if he has nothing
I also fold to the shove as played, it looks like he has you crushed because minbets generally mean he has the nuts and after you minraised him back he thought you also had enough to stack off which is why he shoved
But I'm biased because I'm EV- with TPTK
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kb coolman
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10-28-2008, 03:43 AM
Post subject: Re: playing for stacks? how did I play this hand?
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#26 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
Please let me know your thoughts on how I played this hand
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I would have raised him 4-5x pre-flop. Suited connectors are within range for lots of folks when folded to on in position, so his 4xBB could be an attempt to steal. In any case, I'm not giving him a shot at the draw. It's also been my experience that JJ is more profitable when you take it down pre-flop. They're just too vulnerable to be played as the over pair. If his guy calls your raise, you know you're probably dominated and you need to be looking for the set just like with any other PP.
I don't like the flop play at all. This is clearly a drawing board, and you've given him a free shot at it. I don't like your 3-bet, and calling the AI is just a bad case of not being able to lay down the over pair. You're really only about a 65% hand at this point, which is pretty weak for stacking off when the villan is showing strength.
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PlayToWin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 606
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
I actually put him on a bluff with two overcards, or any PP. Not sure how close / bad that estimation is?
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Slevin - I've been following your poker journey since the beginning. I think you've taken more sh!t than you deserve, though you obv deserved some of it. I know what you mean about playing below 10NL. I lost more when I dropped down than I ever did at 10NL, so I decided to stick with 10NL. But, I took time off to study (videos, FTR Strategy posts, etc.) and I started again with 27 buyins. I'll let you know how it turns out.
To the point. In retrospect, I'm guessing you can see why villian bet like he did. He hit the nuts on the flop. What did you have? You need to be able to get away from these hands.
Here are some quotes from FTR that I've compiled. I read these, and many more, before I start a session. The hard part is to keep these in mind while your playing.
A good rule of thumb is “Don’t go broke with TP”.
"Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot".
"No one gets by without making mistakes, but you have to try to avoid expensive mistakes if you can. If the hands you lose are small pots, and the hands you win are big pots, then over time you become a winning player."
"You should only be calling an all-in with either the near nuts, or with a good hand against a player where you have a very strong read that they are bluffing or over-betting a marginal hand."
"Protect your stack. You don't need to get theirs every hand. At these stakes they are more than willing to give you all their money, just wait to have a monster and take it."
I hope this helps. Good Luck. Tighten up. Learn to fold!
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