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littlewashu
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12-29-2005, 03:30 PM
Post subject: playing small pairs
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: pittsburgh,pa
Posts: 104
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I have read alot about playing small pairs on here and dont agree with alot of it. last night on full tilt(before i went in tilt mode and blew up). I was dealt pocket 5's. there where 7 people at the table so i raised 2xbb. 3 poeple folded the others just called. ok we are down to 4. flop comes out 4s jh 9h. i have position so i raise again. 1 fold and 2 checks here. Now correct me if im wrong but im pegging one guy to be on a flush draw and the other to have 2 higher unpaired pocket cards or he would have raised me. turn is 10c i raise again guy with flush draw folds other just checks. river 4c i come out betting again last person calls. I check win pot with pair of 5's. would there be any point of re raising here was just checking right or should i have raised thinking i had this guy beat. I think you have to play these small pocket pairs aggressively at least till you see the flop if you get a set great if you get crap then raise and see what youre oppents do. stay aggressive see how many fold to youre bet and go from there
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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"With pocket pairs, especially small ones, you just want to call because you have the chance to make a lot of money if the field is bigger"
"Before, I might've raised to limit the field, but what I realized through some mathematical study is that you want as many people as possible when you have the middle pocket pair, and you want to get in cheap. You want to flop a set, and you want as many people in as possible so someone else flops something too."
-Phil Gordon
What he's saying is it increases your implied odds to play low pockets for set value against an array of callers. Math doesn't lie. Sure you can raise one small pair and bet out on multiple boards that almost always have an overcard, but you're missing out on the true value of the low pocket pair by doing so. You're cheating yourself.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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salt3d
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 69
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The first thing that springs to mind is that you're relying on your opponents to tell you you're not winning anymore. As soon as you run into a passive player willing to call down with mid pair or better, your plan will come unstuck.
What do you do when someone finally raises you?
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Betting a pair of 5s on a JTx board is spewing. Set it or forget it.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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^^^
What he said.
If you are being aggressive pre and postflop with 55, you might as well pick any two random cards and be agressive in the same manner. This is because your opponent will react the same way and your profits/losses will be close to the same as well (without considering 55 flopped set).
Like Phil says, it's best to limp in with implied odds for a set.
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bearcats05
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 336
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yeah what dont you agree with on here littlewashu? nobody would tell you to play small pocket pairs like that... just limp for a set.
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littlewashu
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12-30-2005, 12:49 PM
Post subject: small pairs
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#8 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: pittsburgh,pa
Posts: 104
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that was just one hand guys not something i do all the time. What i was getting from my oppents was weakness so I ran a bluff and got away with it. Whats wrong with that
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finky
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 270
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Nothings wrong with that, but as you said you ran a bluff so what do your cards matter?
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bunthorne
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12-30-2005, 06:20 PM
Post subject: Re: playing small pairs
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#10 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littlewashu
I have read alot about playing small pairs on here and dont agree with alot of it. last night on full tilt(before i went in tilt mode and blew up). I was dealt pocket 5's. there where 7 people at the table so i raised 2xbb. 3 poeple folded the others just called. ok we are down to 4. flop comes out 4s jh 9h. i have position so i raise again. 1 fold and 2 checks here. Now correct me if im wrong but im pegging one guy to be on a flush draw and the other to have 2 higher unpaired pocket cards or he would have raised me. turn is 10c i raise again guy with flush draw folds other just checks. river 4c i come out betting again last person calls. I check win pot with pair of 5's. would there be any point of re raising here was just checking right or should i have raised thinking i had this guy beat. I think you have to play these small pocket pairs aggressively at least till you see the flop if you get a set great if you get crap then raise and see what youre oppents do. stay aggressive see how many fold to youre bet and go from there
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When playing low pairs like this, you are basically after one thing - a set on the flop. With 55, for example, the likelihood is that three overcards will flop and you will be behind to someone who has made a pair. Of course they might not know this and if you raised preflop they might, just might, fold to a decent bet on the flop. It depends on the player and you should only try this against one or, at most, two opponents. But if you want to try the bluff it is one bet only in this situation (unless you've got an accurate read on your opponent) and if your bluff is called you need to be prepared to give the hand up unless you've got a draw on the turn. Many players hang on to low and medium pocket pairs too long and it is easy to leak chips with it. The general rule is - no set, no bet.
Because you are hoping for a set, you want as many opponents in the flop as possible, so limping or minimal raising preflop is the order of the day. If you hit your set, you must bet it hard to deter others from chasing the flush or straight which can cripple you (as I have learned by coming unstuck with slowplaying too many times) unless there is no draw possible. If there is no draw you can make smaller bets or perhaps even check as you won't mind an opponent improving to two pair or maybe pairing one of his overcards. If the turn produces a possible draw you must get your money in at this point to drive out the drawers.
The only other thing to worry about is someone hitting a bigger set. Sets are difficult to release, but if someone is calling your bets on what appears to be a drawfree flop and turn then either they are a weak player, in which case you can fill your boots, or they have a set, possibly a higher set than yours. You must be prepared to dump it.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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little lol
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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You don't routinely raise pocket pairs, because when you hit a set, you will have missed out on a tremendous implied odds opportunity when you find yourself against only 1-2 opponents who wiffed. It's as simple as that. It's not so much that raising it is a terrible idea. It's that not raising is a better one. You're seeking isolation with a hand that plays well against multiple opponents. JT suited has the same properties.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I dont care whats witten in this thread.
1. Raising pps at a non short handed table is -ev, unless you have some damn good post flop skills or a very passive, tight table.
2. Mini raising pps is a play for donks. To easy to read. Take the implies odds no matter how many limpers
Ive found enough players who will c-bet a raggedy flop with a pp (i know who they are) and then continue to do so even though i call with middle at times even bootom pair. Throwing money at pots with pps is abad idea unless you can put opps on certain less good hands, poor odds. PPs arent for post flop play unless its a raised pot raggedy board or you've setted up.
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