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spoonitnow
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04-22-2008, 04:37 PM
Post subject: Playing a Set in Position
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Suppose 60bb stacks and a 7-handed table.
A tight/aggressive player opens for 4xbb from UTG/4-off-the-button. The CO calls, we call on the button with 5 5 , and the blinds fold.
The pot is 13.5bb and the flop comes K T 5  .
1. UTG bets 10bb and CO folds. What is our play?
2. UTG bets 10bb and CO calls. What is our play?
3. UTG checks and CO bets 10bb. What is our play?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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raise raise raise.
raise to 28-30 in 1 and 3, raise to 35-40 (possibly push) in 2
This may be more interesting 100 deep
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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langaan
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04-22-2008, 05:44 PM
Post subject: Re: Playing a Set in Position
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#3 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Suppose 60bb stacks and a 7-handed table.
A tight/aggressive player opens for 4xbb from UTG/4-off-the-button. The CO calls, we call on the button with 5 5 , and the blinds fold.
The pot is 13.5bb and the flop comes K T 5 .
1. UTG bets 10bb and CO folds. What is our play?
2. UTG bets 10bb and CO calls. What is our play?
3. UTG checks and CO bets 10bb. What is our play? |
1. call and bet/raise turn
2. shove or call and bet/raise non club turn
3. re-raise to 35-40bb
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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While a flush draw is possible (more possible for CO than UTG) the Kc on the board reduces the possible cc hands (and Tc also, for CO). AcQc is the only possible two-club hand for UTG. CO has more drawing hands in his range. AcQc, QcJc are just the beginning. Other QJ hands have 8 outs to a straight (or 7ish, if we think UTG probably has at least one of the aces). I'm comfortable playing a set slowly against UTG, but probably not so much against CO.
1. Call flop, leaving 46bb in all stacks and 33.5bb in the pot. If checked to on turn bet 22 into the pot. If bet into, shove. If shoved into, call. Else shove river.
2. Pot has 33.5bb before we act. Shove makes the pot 89.5bb with 56bb to call for UTG and CO, and is likely to fold out the opponents. I tend to favour a shove because CO may have something drawy and he should certainly not get odds for it. They might both fold and I take down a smaller pot for it, but still the best EV I think. Letting CO in cheaply could be an expensive mistake.
3. UTG could be slowplaying a set (TT or KK - 6 combinations) or just checking to fold a missed flop (AQs, AQo, AJs - 16 combinations). It doesn't really matter though - CO may very well have put in the bet as a blocking bet with some fold equity and hoping that he can get additional cards to his potential draws cheaply. I think we have to push.
Edit note: UTG could also have intended to check-raise with AK, so nothing wrong with a push here I think.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
raise raise raise.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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1. Call
2. Raise
3. Call
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fat-b
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 117
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who the fuck plays 60bb poker anyway? drawy board aka raise
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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silly to get trappy on such a cordinated board with bottom set. raise in all cases.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
silly to get trappy on such a cordinated board with bottom set. raise in all cases.
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QFT
Especially in a 3-way. The only one you might make a case for slowplaying is 1) with the CO out of the picture, & UTG unlikely to have the FD or OESD, but even so I like the raise more.
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langaan
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
silly to get trappy on such a cordinated board with bottom set. raise in all cases.
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i think we are ok to call the flop bet in hand 1 with the CO out of the picture, its unlikely that he has AQc and very possible that he is holding AK,
infact i may call flop and turn and hope for a non club on the river to shove into inhopes he thinks im bluffing 
besides, if utg cbets a 3way pot here, he almost has to have AA/AK
i dont mind raising though, hes shoving back with AA/AK gauranteed, but hes also folding QQ/AQo
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by langaan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
silly to get trappy on such a cordinated board with bottom set. raise in all cases.
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i think we are ok to call the flop bet in hand 1 with the CO out of the picture, its unlikely that he has AQc and very possible that he is holding AK,
infact i may call flop and turn and hope for a non club on the river to shove into inhopes he thinks im bluffing
besides, if utg cbets a 3way pot here, he almost has to have AA/AK
i dont mind raising though, hes shoving back with AA/AK gauranteed, but hes also folding QQ/AQo |
cbet into a 3way pot is not AA/KK nearly as often as you think it is. Calling assuming he has AK and hoping for no more clubs is a bad idea, because if clubs do come, you aren't getting much more out of him, and you probably won't be all that eager to get it all in either.
If he has TPTK he is probably not going anywhere on a drawy board, raise play the hand as though he has enough to pay you off, you will make a lot more than you will slowplaying, especially because they will often times pay you off with less than you think.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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guys how often does an ep raisor have a fd here?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
guys how often does an ep raisor have a straight or fd here?
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fyp
Often enough to make us wish we raised. We don't need to be teaching beginners to play sets slow on draw-heavy boards.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,447
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fat-b
who the fuck plays 60bb poker anyway? drawy board aka raise
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2nd
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I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,801
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1. call
2. push
3. raise to 35bb
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
1. Call
2. Raise
3. Call
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<SrslySirius> Hal Lubarsky, my nemesis.
<SaltLick> are you seriously losing to a blind guy
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Online: All-in
Live: Raise to 40bb, put the rest in on any turn unless I think my opponent won't freak-out if I just shove the flop.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,068
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1. Call
2. Raise
3. Shove
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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shove each one since we are 60BB deep. looks drawy
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
guys how often does an ep raisor have a fd here?
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You're missing the point. If we call the flop then a club coming off on the turn or river is bad for us regardless of whether villain has a flush draw or not. Instead, we should raise since villain is unlikely to fold top pair for 60bb on a draw-heavy board.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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langaan
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
guys how often does an ep raisor have a fd here?
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You're missing the point. If we call the flop then a club coming off on the turn or river is bad for us regardless of whether villain has a flush draw or not. Instead, we should raise since villain is unlikely to fold top pair for 60bb on a draw-heavy board. |
hmm, i think i agree with spoon.
ive changed my mind, i think we want to raise/get it all in on the flop in all 3 spots
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
shove each one since we are 60BB deep. looks drawy
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go go go
fnord said it also
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I agree raising on all 3.
Does being 100bbs change anything in situation 1?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
guys how often does an ep raisor have a fd here?
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You're missing the point. If we call the flop then a club coming off on the turn or river is bad for us regardless of whether villain has a flush draw or not. Instead, we should raise since villain is unlikely to fold top pair for 60bb on a draw-heavy board. |
but hes shoving 2/3rds of turns way behind, or is commited on 2/3rds of turns and we arent folding on a flushy board anyway.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
guys how often does an ep raisor have a fd here?
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You're missing the point. If we call the flop then a club coming off on the turn or river is bad for us regardless of whether villain has a flush draw or not. Instead, we should raise since villain is unlikely to fold top pair for 60bb on a draw-heavy board. |
but hes shoving 2/3rds of turns way behind, or is commited on 2/3rds of turns and we arent folding on a flushy board anyway. |
Any time the board is drawy you have to be concerned about scare cards. Not all drawy flops are being drawn to, sometimes that scare card scares the opponent. You need to get the money in. Whether villain has the draw or not, the hand shuts down when the draw completes. I've seen plenty of guys fold with less than 1/3 PSB's remaining after a FD completes.
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