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playing QJo and KJo.

  
 
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R3537
Old 01-06-2008, 04:22 AM     Post subject: playing QJo and KJo. #1 (permalink)  

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R3537
I'm finding that the hardest 2 hands to play are these two for me. Hard to fold pre-flop when dealt, and hard to fold post-flop when you hit. When suited it helps but even then they're still difficult to figure ouf. What do the more experienced do when it comes to these hands?
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spoonitnow
Old 01-06-2008, 05:34 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Play them in position and don't call raises with them pretty much. I say don't call raises with them because you can easily be dominated when calling a raise with KJ or QJ.

The main point, however, is that a lot of your value with these hands comes from the position you play them from and whether or not you have the initiative.

Here are two quick examples from this week that I just randomly picked out of Poker Tracker. In the first hand, I raise over a few limpers in position trying to get the hand heads up or just take it down preflop. I have a good chance to pick up the $4.50 already on the table, but if I'm called I still have a scenario on the flop where I'll be able to make a +EV continuation bet a majority of the time. In the second hand, with just one limper I have a really good chance to pick it up preflop, and even if I'm called I'll still usually have a +EV spot for a continuation bet.

The point is that big starting hands have a lot of value by themselves, and so with more marginal starting hands, you have to have position and initiative to get more value.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($301.55)
MP1 ($110.85)
MP2 ($86.10)
MP3 ($72.45)
CO ($41.35)
Hero ($103.65)
SB ($165.60)
BB ($121.75)
UTG ($29.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K.
UTG calls $1, 3 folds, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $5.50


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($99.50)
Button ($22.85)
Hero ($113.50)
BB ($112.25)
UTG ($95.90)
MP1 ($107.60)
MP2 ($51.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, J.
2 folds, MP2 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, MP2 calls $5.

Flop: ($13) 6, Q, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $11, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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pankfish
Old 01-06-2008, 06:54 AM #3 (permalink)  
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IMO you can only call a raise with these hands on the button. otherwise you fold to a tight players raise or 3 bet a loose players raise. I guess this can be said about a lot of hands though. I guess you could 3 bet a weak tight player with these too because it is easy to take the pot post flop if they miss but that's more of a play.
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Fnord
Old 01-06-2008, 07:43 AM #4 (permalink)  
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If your button calling range is all pairs (including AA/KK), you're not doing much wrong through the middles stakes.

Floating the button in full ring was a pretty big loser for me until I stopped doing it quite so much.

Even Ed isnt' doing this with offsuit broadways, BTW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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spoonitnow
Old 01-06-2008, 12:36 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
IMO you can only call a raise with these hands on the button. otherwise you fold to a tight players raise or 3 bet a loose players raise. I guess this can be said about a lot of hands though. I guess you could 3 bet a weak tight player with these too because it is easy to take the pot post flop if they miss but that's more of a play.
Calling raises with these hands, especially from anything resembling a tight player, is -EV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Vrax
Old 01-06-2008, 02:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
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1. Buy in for 50BB
2. Open preflop
3. Flop a top pair
4. ???
5. Profit.
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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spoonitnow
Old 01-06-2008, 04:44 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrax
1. Buy in for 50BB
2. Open preflop
3. Flop a top pair
4. ???
5. Profit.
That was random.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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ApocalypseCow
Old 01-12-2008, 07:25 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Somehow I find the Underpants Gnomes reference fitting. It almost describes poker to a T:
Step 1: Steal underpants
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
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