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EasyPoker
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01-09-2010, 02:08 AM
Post subject: playing pocket pairs 88+
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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What is the best way to play them?
I don't want to raise high at 2nl in case someone has a higher card and pairs it on the flop...but at the same time I want as few ppl as possible to see the flop...
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OhioRounder
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 171
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Move up to where people respect your raises. 
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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But then that means I haven't actually beaten 2NL, which is the aim.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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daviddem
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philippines/Saudi Arabia
Posts: 983
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For she smaller ones (88,99) it really depends on the table situation and your position. For TT+, I would be hard pressed to think of a case where I would not raise (unless you start trying to trap with your big hands).
With 88, 99 or smaller pairs you can call a small raise in position and hope to flop a set. You can also consider limping behind one or two limpers and again hunt for a set. You can also raise limpers if some of them are capable of limp/folding and you think you have a good chance of taking the hand right there. If you don't take the hand preflop, c-bet on most flops if you have only one or two opponents even if you don't get your set and see what happens. At worse, you will face a raise and have to fold. At best, you will take the hand. In between, you get to see one or possibly two more cards for another chance to get your set. Beware that playing sets in multiway pots with lots of players is a recipe to go broke.
In unopened pots, you would normally have to raise 88-99, even in early position. If it is not a table of donks, there is a chance they will respect a UTG raise. If not, then c-bet on dry flops and take it from there.
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Virginity is like a bubble: one prick and it's all gone
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Ok, I've worked out some sort of system on the tables I'm playing.
Basically I'm limping a lot more hands against these guffballs and taking down pots post-flop or folding postflop. Seems to be working, I've had a really good night.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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No no no. Not SYS-TEM. RAN-GES.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Noted.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Depends on a whole bunch of things. At 2nl with anything under TT i would just call in ep and raise limpers in LP. If it's raised before it gets to me then i have a few things to think about.
First what is the effective stack size and where did the raise come from. When considering stack size you just wanna ask yourself is it big enough to set hunt. People disagree on how big is big enough. At 2nl i would say 12xbb is just on the edge of big enough. So If it is 12xbb or better i just limp. Unless it's a button raise and i'm in one of the blinds. Then i 3-bet a lot with any pair. Then i c-bet most any flop. If button 4-bets me i fold all but the best pairs. At 2nl a 4-bet is usually QQ+ or AK.
If stacks are to small to set hunt i play kinda the same except flating a PF raise is never an option for me. If a player raises before me i 3-bet or fold. I never call i don't even slow play aces
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
At 2nl with anything under TT i would just call in ep
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Limping 88-JJ in Ep is bad - at a typical 2NL table you'll be playing a multiway limped pot oop which with a hand like 88-JJ is not profitable.
After all these aren't speculative hands like A3s or 98s which may sometimes benefit from limping at loose passive tables - it should be raised as just calling wastes most of the potential.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HoopyDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
At 2nl with anything under TT i would just call in ep
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Limping 88-JJ in Ep is bad - at a typical 2NL table you'll be playing a multiway limped pot oop which with a hand like 88-JJ is not profitable.
After all these aren't speculative hands like A3s or 98s which may sometimes benefit from limping at loose passive tables - it should be raised as just calling wastes most of the potential. |
Well with all respect i do just fine limping small pairs in ep. I usually get multiple limpers behind me and win a big pot when i hit a set. When i limp small pairs in ep i am playing no set no bet poker. I don't really like raising with small pairs in ep. This is 2nl so you will usually get atleast 1 caller. Then you will be forced to play a flop the will most likely contain overs out of position in a raised pot.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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I find that cbets are typically more effective against tighter players who limp pf from EP.
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(Josh)
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eragotte
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Basically I'm limping a lot more hands against these guffballs and taking down pots post-flop or folding postflop. Seems to be working, I've had a really good night.
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plz plz dont do this
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by eragotte
plz plz dont do this
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Why? I do it because of this:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
When i limp small pairs in ep i am playing no set no bet poker. I don't really like raising with small pairs in ep. This is 2nl so you will usually get atleast 1 caller. Then you will be forced to play a flop the will most likely contain overs out of position in a raised pot.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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where the fuck is spoonitnow. i need a ranges.gif so bad.
@easypoker: most 2nl players are thinking on level 0 incorrectly (i.e. 'what do i have'). How can we exploit this?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
where the fuck is spoonitnow. i need a ranges.gif so bad.
@easypoker: most 2nl players are thinking on level 0 incorrectly (i.e. 'what do i have'). How can we exploit this?
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How can we exploit this? By being on level 1?
By thinking about what other people might have?
I dunno if your question was rhetorical...
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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ok so we're on level 1. How does that effect raising preflop? what worse hands call?
what flops are more likely to hit villain? how can we exploit the likelihood that he hits a flop?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Parasurama
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01-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Post subject: Re: playing pocket pairs 88+
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#17 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I don't want to raise high at 2nl in case someone has a higher card and pairs it on the flop...but at the same time I want as few ppl as possible to see the flop...
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This is a horribly misguided statement, medium pocket pairs with lots of players to the flop are some of the most profitable situations in microstakes full ring. That being said, raising is still usually best, never open limp.
Besides that, saying "I don't want to raise in case someone has a higher card and pairs it" is even more ridiculous. How can you say this without considering any math or ranges whatsoever? How often is your opponent going to have an overcard? How often is he going to hit his overcard? How often are you going to hit a set?
When you say this on a forum, it's understood as "I think it is not profitable for me when I raise with a medium pair and get called by players holding overcards." Even if this is not what you meant (perhaps were saying that you find it uncomfortable playing with a pocket pair with overcards on the board) these are the kinds of statements you should be thinking about and evaluating. You have not considered nearly enough factors to properly evaluate this statement.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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parasurama pwned me. i was all like, i cant find a good way to say it so ill try to get the other guys to do it...and then para just swoops in and is like BAM MOTHA FUCKA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I don't want to raise KK preflop since someone might have an Ace and an Ace might come on the flop.
By that logic I don't want to raise KK on a Q-high flop since someone might have an Ace and an Ace might come on the turn.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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I should have elaborated.
I'm playing with just 10bb after an enormous tilt. I'm trying to play incredibly tight and it worked for me yesterday. I will take all comments on board though.
If I had a roll to play with, I would always raise pockets as normal.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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jesus you're playing 10bb stacks at 2NL? This accomplishes nothing. You're not making money, you're not learning how to make money, you're probably not even going to learn a good shortstacking strategy.
I'm not a shortstacker but I think you should probably be trying to get AI preflop as often as you can with 88+
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
I'm not a shortstacker but I think you should probably be trying to get AI preflop as often as you can with 88+
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LOL, really?
I'm playing two tables with the maximum amount on each table ($5). I'm never beneath $5 at the end of a session (since I started playing again after my tilt).
So why would I risk it all preflop with 88-QQ when 2nl has loads of calling stations?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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bb = big blinds not buy ins, just a heads up.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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I know that.
My "LOL, really" comment was in reference to his choice of strategy.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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then yes, its pretty obvious u should be shoving 88 and lol at ever limping anything ever with 10bbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Serious breakdown of communication going on here
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(Josh)
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JR9477
Serious breakdown of communication going on here
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Totally.
JKDS and Parasurama: You're telling me to shove with 88+ everytime?
Please give reasoning when you make a bold statement like that.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Sometimes I limp with pockets JJ+
This is to coax people in. Then I bet high on the flop or turn.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Easy, it arose from your incorrect use of "bb" instead of "bi". I'm sure you knew what you meant, but from an outside point of view it can seem a little unclear. To clarify...
Do you mean that you have 10buy-ins for 2nl when buying in for the maximum $5?
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(Josh)
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JR9477
Easy, it arose from your incorrect use of "bb" instead of "bi". I'm sure you knew what you meant, but from an outside point of view it can seem a little unclear. To clarify...
Do you mean that you have 10buy-ins for 2nl when buying in for the maximum $5?
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1 buy in = 100bb
100bb @ 2nl = $2
Thus, I have about 8 buy-ins in my account right now.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Oh yeah, and following that advice to shove with 88+ just lost me about $4. I had JJ and lost to QQ.
Great stuff.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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The advice about shoving 88+ was meant for a 10bb stack (which you shouldn't/can't have), not for a 100bb stack
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(Josh)
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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hahaha I apologize. You said you were playing with 10bb, which led me to believe you were playing shortstacked (buying in for 20 cents at 2NL) but actually you're playing deepstacked (250bb). I would suggest buying in for only 100bb, especially since you only have 10 buy-ins, or perhaps 9 now. What's your sn? I'll ship you $4 if you want, pm if you don't want it public.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Nah it's ok, but thanks so much.
I just shoved with KK and won a massive pot (for 2nl) so im ok!
thanks though, really appreciate it.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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OP is extremely results oriented. this is not how you win at poker.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
OP is extremely results oriented. this is not how you win at poker.
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How does that help me?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Dont listen to anything i say, because i have no idea what you're talking about. Idk, maybe we're not on the same wavelength but it seems you and i just dont know what the other is saying. My mistake.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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OP might be less results oriented if each win/loss didn't result in a huge gain/loss in his bankroll
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(Josh)
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Dont listen to anything i say, because i have no idea what you're talking about. Idk, maybe we're not on the same wavelength but it seems you and i just dont know what the other is saying. My mistake.
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LOL, one of those occasions. No worries.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JR9477
OP might be less results oriented if each win/loss didn't result in a huge gain/loss in his bankroll
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Very true.
Read this...you might understand where I'm coming from:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...lt-t91652.html
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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Easy , Have you watched ant of the videos on this site?
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by celtic123
Easy , Have you watched ant of the videos on this site?
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Doing so now.
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Trashcona
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by celtic123
Easy , Have you watched ant of the videos on this site?
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Doing so now. |
I'd recomend reading the beginer's digest to start things off.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Did I read right? OP is a 2nl shortstacker and limps JJ?
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
Did I read right? OP is a 2nl shortstacker and limps JJ?
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[X] OP is 2NL
[ ] OP limps JJ
[ ] OP is a shortstacker
[ ] Muzzard reads properly
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
Did I read right? OP is a 2nl shortstacker and limps JJ?
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[X] OP is 2NL
[ ] OP limps JJ
[ ] OP is a shortstacker
[ ] Muzzard reads properly |
I'm not reading the cluster fuck that is this thread.
As a general FR rule I'd raise like 55+ UTG and fold 44>x. Add in a PP every position until your opeing 22 in 6max utg position.
I don't think it'd be that -EV at 2nl to open limp like 22-66 UTG or something, but you'd have to be weary to cut this out as you start moving up as it's pretty transparent unless you have a balanced limping UTG range.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Well don't comment then!
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Well don't comment then!
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read above
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Ok, thanks very much.
Good response.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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