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Playing OOP HU with SD value and initiative

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Evilpopcorn

06-22-2009, 06:25 AM Post subject: Playing OOP HU with SD value and initiative

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

These are spots that has me wondering whether my lines are right.

Examples:

TT on K 5 2 r
99 on A 7 5 (2suites)
JJ on Q 5 6 (3suites)

So our hand has showdown value and thus we wana get it down to showdown. Obivously villian type and whether the board is drawy will also effect.

If i am considering a drawy board then my hand has SD value and it probably in need of protection. Against a villian i know who peels flops with many weak hands and draws then a bet makes sense i would think. Now what about a villian who doesnt peal light and is passive? Then could i check the flop expecting him to check worse back and i can bet a safe turn? What is the villian who doesnt peel light but is aggressive and will bet when checked to?

What about same villians on dry board ?

Think i am rambling here a bit. Some thoughts would be great!

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06-22-2009, 06:32 AM

#2 (permalink)

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all of these are b/f for me
we're not super pumped about showing down anyway

Evilpopcorn

06-22-2009, 09:02 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Wouldnt leading these flops fold a lot of worse hands that we could potentuially get value out of by checking and keep in hands that beat us. Sure if we know the villian is peeling very light we can expect him to say call with PP then we could then check turn for pot control and potentially get another bet on the river.

With the b/f line what are your thoughts on when u get flatted on the flop ?

06-22-2009, 09:30 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn

we just try to check it down if called

the hands we fold by betting are the ones that have outs against us, maybe even 6 of outs like KQo on A75ss
but on K52 a lot of people will call 99 and 88 against your TT because they expect the cbet
on Qh5h6h we would love a fold anyway because even 3d3h has ten billion outs against us

it also matters what position we're in
if we're opening UTG we get lots of respect, if we're opening from SB we get crap for respect
OOP it's just really hard to do anything, though

Evilpopcorn

06-22-2009, 09:44 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Yeah OOP is alwayz sucky !

So you saying the fact that cbets in general dont get too much credit that their calling ranges in general are wide enough to use the b/f line. Good point about adjusting their calling ranges on the flop based on your position you raised preflop, this is assuming of course this villian actually takes note of this.

Lets say i have the read that opponent only continues with Tp or beter when cbet. Then would this warrant a check flop and bet turn line ?

The Qh5h6h if we fire here and get called and the turn bricks then in this case we would be firing a 2nd barrel correct ?

06-22-2009, 10:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

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well if he only continues with top pair only, our cbet probably takes it down 70% of the time and we should cbet for protection
when we shouldn't cbet is if our opponent floats us to take it away later or raises a lot as a bluff

against the people who only continue with top pair, of course we shouldn't barrel them because they're already calling with hands that can stand a second barrel
against people who float lots you should definitely barrel A75ss on a blank because it just looks like we have a good ace and we're up against a higher PP sometimes or a hand with 5 outs
on K52r we don't necessarily need to barrel if it's a blank because we're up against lots of smaller pps and very few second pair type hands (this is opponent dependent obv) and we should just check it down
on Qh6h5h it's just a shitty spot when we get called and I think he either has a heart+overcards or a queen+ and neither of those hands is really planning on folding so we should c/f

but then it's like we're going into situations that are opponent-dependent
so a fish that calls every cbet should be barreled off a small heart on Qh5h6hx but not someone whose range is strong on that board
or a super bad fish that has all these 5x or 33 type hands on a K52 board that will call all three streets with any pair
or someone who continues with only an ace on ace high boards (raises flush draws) should not be barreled

so you have all of these exceptions as well

Evilpopcorn

06-22-2009, 10:24 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Quote:

If the the board is very dry for example K52r and we got the JJ against a villian who is only calling with Tp then isnt the there enough value in risking not protecting against at most 6 outs by checking and getting a bet from his PP. Sure a turn card is gonna lose us our market some of the time anywayz i guess. Lets take the extreme case and say i have a solid note that villian only continues with Tp and will call a turn bet on non scary card if flop is checked.

Ok how bout the villian who lurv betting when u check to him. So would this then be a lot of the time a b/f flop line and c/c turn line?

Against the floaters are we c/c one or two streets ? Very vilian dependant i guess.

Thanks for taking the time iopq and having patience with me

06-22-2009, 11:05 AM

#8 (permalink)

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no, he'd probably just check his pp down instead of betting it? I mean if you have a read that he would just randomly bet when checked to, including pps, but would fold to a cbet, then sure
a lot of fish will bet when checked to no matter what their hand is
so if your opponent is indeed using that strategy then of course you'd check to him

against people that float you should just barrel them off if you think that trying to show the hand down is not a good idea
and even if people float sometimes it's still best to fold to a turn bet because a float is not the entirety of their range
so if we bet the Qh5h6h board against someone who loves to float, and the turn bricks we might go ahead and dump the hand anyway because he's never floating without a piece and his floats have lots of outs against us anyway
obviously it matters on what hands they'll bet on the turn
because if they have TT they'll probably check behind

this is why people don't like talking in general terms about situations and prefer hand histories O.o

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