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journey075
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03-10-2005, 04:06 PM
Post subject: Playing an OE Straight Draw with a Flush Draw on the Board
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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Do you guys even do this? Instead of having 8 outs, you now only have 6. It might be a solid hand but with 2 or more people in the hand with a raise, is it a definitive fold?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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If the pot is a monster and you are disciplined enough to fold it if one of the flush cards come that also give you a strt. There are rare circumastances where I will play B/C eveyone else is so worried about the flush draw that your straight becomes incredibily deceptive.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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I count it as 4 outs (since 1/3 of the time the flush will complete) and if the odds are there for 4 outs call.
- sed
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Legendash
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Full House
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crypto 6max 100NL
Posts: 611
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Why 4 outs? One card left to come, 8 make your straight, 2 make the flush, 8-2=6.
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"[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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i think he is saying you have 6 outs to make on the turn without the flush and that the flush will make 1/3 of the time in total. But this is wrong because if you hit on the turn, and your opponent is still drawing, then he is about 20%. 20% of 6 is 1.2, so if we subtract 1.2 from 6 its closer to 4.8 outs, not 4. So think of it as about 5 outs as compared to 4 or 6.
Do i have this right?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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you have to also consider the possibility that the flush will hit on the turn, which is 20% of the time. so 4 outs sounds right to me.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Eh, I play it like I would a flush draw. No reason to get all passive because someone else is on a draw. Bet!
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giantdogs92
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 52
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wow u guys are confusin me 
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"If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apoligize" -Muhammed Ali
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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well heres my reasoning. a flush draw has a higher chance to hit than a straight draw. no matter what. its a simple 9 outs to 8. now when you start calling raises searching for one of your straight cards (and there are only 6 in the deck that will comfortably complete your straight), you are in the exact same position that you would be if you were playing over cards.
now i agree it might be wise to play it because it is deceptive, but i hardly think one should play it simply because of the straight possibility.
i think to play this well you would have to aggressively take control of the betting. that way if the flush doesnt hit (and the straight doesnt either) you can try and force folds prior to a showdown. i would say bet the flop small and entice a raise, at which point you reraise hard. you want to make it as clear as possible that a flush is the only out the others have.
i believe the only way to play this is if you have implied odds, not only do you have to play with the chance of comfortably hitting your straight, but the chance that your opponent will also miss theirs. this cannot be played like a regular straight (check/fold) draw.
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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chez,
i did consider that which is why i gave him only 6 outs instead of the normal 8. 6 that complete the straight and not the flush.
if you have 8c 9c and your opponent has Ad 3d and the flop is
7d Td 2c i am not counting the Jd and the 6d as outs, only the Jc Js Jh and the 6c 6s 6h. i am saying if the turn comes a 6c your opponent still has a 4;1 shot of winning the hand, so you might want to think about it as 5 outs on the flop when you try to draw.
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