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tuuk2
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09-18-2009, 02:11 PM
Post subject: Playing KK from BB against steal attempt - 10nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Here's a situation I come into every now any then where I wake up with a good hand in the BB against what I consider to be an obvious steal attempt from the SB. My question is: Should we re-raise here to try to narrow down the SB's range or should we be calling to trap? The problem I have with the trap is that since the villain could be literally raising any two there, the flop could hit them hard and I wouldn't be able to put them on a strong hand.
For instance, say that the raised with 7-2o and the flop was 7-2-Q. If they raised here, I'd probably put them on Q-10 through A-Q (or Qx even depending on the HUD and my own reads). But re-raising here closes down the action if they do have garbage. My normal play here is to re-raise and narrow their range. I'd like some feedback to know if this is the standard play or whether I should try a mix of re-raise and call. Say 80-20 or something...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($10)
MP ($11.25)
CO ($14.25)
Button ($7.45)
SB ($10)
Hero (BB) ($14.30)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , K
4 folds, SB bets $0.40, Hero?
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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I'm not sure why you're putting emphasis on "narrowing someones range" being a good thing. If we raise here, we're doing it for value, not because we want to narrow his range. Preferably, he is a total station and calls our 3 bet with his entire range so we can get post flop with trash like K6 and Q8 that we completely dominate. You don't ever want villain to fold a worse hand just so you can have a more accurate idea of what he might have. You never want villain to fold a worse hand or range when you bet or raise for value.
So what this question comes down to is your opponent and his tendencies. If he folds to a lot of 3 bets and opens really wide b vs b then calling has it's merits.
1. We leave weak hands in his range that can call 3 streets with top pair below our KK that he will fold preflop to a 3-bet.
2. If he steals a lot b vs b like you expect, by calling with a hand as strong as KK, we can balance our range and allow us to defend more profitably in position with weaker holdings. If we're flatting a lot of hands b vs b and suddenly 3-bet here, it's likely our 3-bet will get less value than it would in a vaccum vs this guy.
*The opposite is true if we have been 3-bet bluffing a fair amount to his sb steals. We are in this case olbliged to 3-bet KK as we can expect more action from his marginal hands that we crush and build the pot as quickly as possible in the process.
Ok so when is it better to 3-bet?
1. When we've been 3-betting already b vs b like I've already said.
2. If villain is likely to 4-bet light, or is just loose preflop and will call with stuff like KJ, 88, T9s etc.
So to answer your question as best I can, It all comes down to your opponent, you dynamic and history with him, and his tendencies.
To generalise, vs and unknown with no history, 3-betting is generally my play because at these stakes people tend to limp the sb an awful lot so raising usually indicates some sort of vague strength. What I mean is people in general don't like to fold to 3-bets when they have half a hand too much so we can expect to be called fairly often.
So think about your opponent and his stats if applicable an make your decision based on the facotrs I've mentioned and how +EV you think each play will be. Don't do anything because you want to "narrow his range." Get value, maximise EV and exploit bad players. That's what the micros are all about so stop worrying about stupid arbitrary concepts like "narrowing someones range so you don't get stacked on Q72 when he has 72." If he opens 7,2 b vs b he probably bluffs at flops (giving you monies) and pays off too many value bets and raises by you on 743r or JJ2 or whatever (again giving you monies.)
The wider he opens, the more hands you can call or 3-bet with. The more hands he calls 3-bets with the more hands you can 3-bet for value. The more hands he folds to 3-bets, the more you can flat call with your value range (hands that are ahead of his range) and 3-bet as a bluff with bad/less playable hands.
To put it simply, someone who opens shit like 72o b vs b is so so easy to destory in position all day long. Be happy about it and think about the EV of each option you have and maximise to hell.
Hope this helps.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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jesus christ
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Carroters, good answer. The reason I posted this question was because I do raise too much here and I think I'm losing value. I didn't have any reads here since he was only 7 hands into the table, but I obviously thought I had the better hand. I think I'll start calling this more in the future and see how I do.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tuuk2
Carroters, good answer. The reason I posted this question was because I do raise too much here and I think I'm losing value. I didn't have any reads here since he was only 7 hands into the table, but I obviously thought I had the better hand. I think I'll start calling this more in the future and see how I do.
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Yeah sure, nothing wrong with trying new things. Try to have a reason for doing it though and know what sort of player you're dealing with and why this makes calling better. Don't worry too much about losing value vs unknowns. Vs a lot of players at 10NL, you're losing value by not 3-betting.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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don't start calling here, just start 3betting a ton if he folds too much
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
jesus christ
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lol this. flatting should be the exception to the rule here, but if villain steals really wide and folds really wide and you haven't 3b him a single friggin time yet (which really should be super rare 'cause you should be 3b'ing him like just about every time he tries to steal if you have this read on him), then i guess 3b'ing is just a was of time.
but if he opens too wide and then folds too wide, then 3b like everything, so that he's on tilt by the time you're dealt KK.
if he either doesn't open too wide or he doesn't fold too wide, then 3b KK and win some moneeeeZ.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Understand. I think what I'm getting from everyone here is the old axiom "it depends". I think 3-betting is what I want to do the most, but I should throw in a flat if I think the villain is willing to try to steal and then lead out on the flop so I can build up the size on the pot. Am I close?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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no, just fucking 3bet
wtf
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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It's more about preflop tendencies. Flatting might be good if you haven't 3 bet him yet and he can fold to 3 bets. If he c-bets flops all the time that's another + for flatting.
Out of curiosity, if you only have 7 hands on the guy, why do you think he's stealing with a really wide range?
The point is if he's opening all kinds of trash in the sb and you're worried about losing value, like spenda said the answe isn't to flat KK, it's to 3-bet him lighter and exploit the hell out of him. If you start 3-betting him light, he'll get sick of it and adjust. That's when you pick up KK and 3-bet him with your monstrar!
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Spenda, feel strongly about that?  So are you saying that you never call in this situation? Because I would guess that I raise here maybe 98% of the time, if not higher currently.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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Well, I guess I feel he's stealing based on the fold to SB and him betting out. Of course it's possible he's got a decent hand, since it's too early to tell, but since it's such an obvious steal spot my first thought is he's stealing.
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