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ryokan

12-27-2008, 05:53 PM Post subject: playing draws

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 119

{Split by jyms from Spendas new years halp thread}

Not sure this is exactly what your looking for, but i sometimes have a problem playing draws, especially with how far to take them:
eg:

UTG raises 3BB, Mid position caller, and I call on the button with 89 of clubs (assume my opponents have big stacks). flop comes KT6 (the T and 6 give me flush draw and gutshot).
UTG bets the pot. mid position folds. Do i call???
Most of the time i do. problem is, if i hit my flush my opponent generally shuts down, killing my implied odds, so i really wanna be hitting my unlikely gutshot, which doesnt happen that often.
presuming i call and miss the turn, opponent bets the pot again, is this an automatic fold???
I know im never getting the correct pot odds in this situation, so would like to know how better players handle draws in general.

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Ragnar4

12-27-2008, 07:45 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryokan

Not sure this is exactly what your looking for, but i sometimes have a problem playing draws, especially with how far to take them:
eg:

UTG raises 3BB, Mid position caller, and I call on the button with 89 of clubs (assume my opponents have big stacks). flop comes KT6 (the T and 6 give me flush draw and gutshot).
UTG bets the pot. mid position folds. Do i call???
Most of the time i do. problem is, if i hit my flush my opponent generally shuts down, killing my implied odds, so i really wanna be hitting my unlikely gutshot, which doesnt happen that often.
presuming i call and miss the turn, opponent bets the pot again, is this an automatic fold???
I know im never getting the correct pot odds in this situation, so would like to know how better players handle draws in general.

I don't wanna de-rail this thread, but I really think you're going to get more satisfaction on this question if you just general post it in BC. What your describing isn't a leak per-say, but more of a lack of fundamental approach towards draws in which you have a huge equity edge.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

jyms

12-27-2008, 08:26 PM

#3 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

{edit}Sorry, after reading this over it sounds a little harsh. I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but there is no better way to ask these questions

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryokan

What ragnar says is true. You have no clue about equity and odds. Have you ever read anything on EV, outs and pot odds?

DO you know the 4 and 2 rule? This is not meant to berate you, I think that you need to learn some basics before working on leaks. This is not a leak but again as ragnar said, this is a fundamental problem that is easily solved by simple math. How do you know a gutshot doesn't happen that often? How do you know your not getting correct pot odds? What are you doing to come to these conclusions?

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ryokan

12-27-2008, 08:28 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 119

u might be right ragnar, but wasnt really a specific example. was best hand i could think up at the time! was just to show that i somtimes get into difficulties playing draws and the various problems with playing them.

Ragnar4

12-27-2008, 08:47 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

I think it's a great example Ryokan. To be honest, in this situation you may be surprised by what the correct answer is.

But again, this is a fundamental flaw that I, and Jyms(it appears) are more than willing to help with, but I really wish that Spenda would split this from the thread so we can attack this without de-railing the thread into a 2/4 rule - evaluating equity and draws and whatnot.

What really surprised me is that this is something I consider to be one of the ABC's of ABC poker, and there isn't an article about this stickied in our "learning starts here" area.

Anyway spenda could you split this so we can attack this sucker head on and not derail your thread

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

ryokan

12-27-2008, 09:32 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 119

sorry, was just meant to be a generic question about draws lol.
obviously, in my example i'd call because id be only getting slightly the worst of it against AK, KQ, and PP, doing well against AQ and so on. If i miss the turn im in kinda bad shape, but if a blank hits and my opponent bets, i'd probably rereaise anyway and try to take it down.

would love to see this split off. i think theres great value in this kind of discussion for beginners like me.

PS (jyms) nothing is too harsh if it makes me, or saves me cash at the tables. i dont have a big ego, just wanna learn.

jyms

12-27-2008, 10:34 PM

#7 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Well basically lets start with what you just said.

Getting slightly the worst of it vs AK, KQ and PP doing well agaist AQ and so on

with jsut that range and nothing else.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

101,970 games 0.015 secs 6,798,000 games/sec

Board: Ks Tc 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.625% 50.40% 00.23% 51393 229.50 { 9c8c }
Hand 1: 49.375% 49.15% 00.23% 50118 229.50 { 22+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }

Your actually ahead. And basically any money going in the pot on the flop will be a split.

Basically yuo have a pre flop raiser and you call on the button with a drawing hand (obv). Calling with this hand means only two things. You wnat to flop a monster (2pr+) or a draw. We know that most UTG raisers are Cbeting any board so when calling anything with this hand our plan is not whether we are going to call a cbet when we flop a draw, but what is the best play against his range. Well guess what. You flopped a better than good hand. So obviously your continuing. Having 50% equity means you can't lose on the flop vs the range you have given him so you need to start getting money in the pot. Not just becasue your breaking even, but any money in the pot is already half yours. with the range of hands you gave him he is only continuing with a few. and that I would bet is KK+, half of the QQ combos, sometimes they fold, maybe AQ gutxhots and TT and 66 sets.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

57,420 games 0.005 secs 11,484,000 games/sec

Board: Ks Tc 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.246% 45.25% 00.00% 25980 0.00 { 9c8c }
Hand 1: 54.754% 54.75% 00.00% 31440 0.00 { KK+, QcQs, QdQs, QhQs, TT, 66, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }

You still have a ton of equity vs these much stronger hands and now have a ton of fold equity (FE) with him folding a bunch of his starting range.

Can you see where this is going?

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JKDS

12-27-2008, 10:51 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

i contributed something to the forum yay!

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ds-t80138.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

jackvance

12-28-2008, 01:52 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Draws kinda suck OOP (when you're first to act), because it's hard to get paid off if you hit. If you check call two streets and then lead the river allin when the flush card hits the board, alarm bells go off. So either you play them with initiative (lead out and bet, or c/r) or just fold unless you get a good price. It's not so bad to fold a draw, especially if it's not the nut flush you're drawing to, or the nut straight. Another case where a draw loses strength is when the board is paired because this opens full house possibilities.

In position they play a lot better, but you have to realize that calling a pot sized bet with a flush draw just for the draw value alone isn't a winning play in and of itself - you pay 33% for a 16% to see the next card be your flush. You kind of have to weigh how much the other guy has left in his stack, and how much more he is likely to pay you if you hit - in that respect straight draws are often better than flush draw, even though they're less likely to hit (8 outs instead of 9) - they're a bit more deceptive.

If it's a multiway pot, it's ofcourse easier to get your draws priced in. If a guy bets 2/3 pot, and there is a caller, you only have to call 22% anymore.

In your example you have more of a monster draw (that's what I call flush draw+gutshot, flush draw+double ended straight draw and flush draw+pair), it's usually a good idea to play those aggressively because you have a lot of equity. It can be deceptive though, today I got it in with gutshot+flush draw, and the other guy was on his own monster draw with pair+higher flush draw, so I was pretty much dead.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Ragnar4

12-28-2008, 01:52 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

how are you feeling about this situation ryokan?

I really feel like you're very close to a pretty major "aha" moment, and it was by far my favorite "aha" moment of all time in my poker career. Which is why I've kinda taken a personal shine to this topic.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

ryokan

12-28-2008, 04:28 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 119

thx for the advice guys, is really appreciated. Am really glad i posted now. who knows what the benefit will be on my bottom line after another 10000+ hands?

settecba

12-29-2008, 03:54 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: stealing blinds from UTG

Posts: 326

i think everyones response is very good..especially jyms´...and you didnt answer his question riokan...can you see?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.

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