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Playing "Broadway" Hands

  
 
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The_Bankroll
Old 07-26-2005, 10:52 PM     Post subject: Playing "Broadway" Hands #1 (permalink)  
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me and a friend were debating about how to best play these hands in a full 10-handed ring game, standard $25 NL Partypoker stuff. so how would you play these in early/middle/late position?

AJs
AJo
ATs
ATo
KQs
KQo
KJs
KJo
QJs
QJo
QTs
QTo
JTs
JTo
 
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BobbySalami
Old 07-26-2005, 10:53 PM #2 (permalink)  
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It all depends on everything....there is no "right" way to play any one of them.
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The_Bankroll
Old 07-26-2005, 10:57 PM #3 (permalink)  
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ok, well, I'll be a little more specific: in early/middle position, do you think that high suited cards, i.e. KTs, are worth limping in? in late position, could KTo be worth a raise if there are 0-2 limpers behind you? it's the trickier situations i having trouble with with these hands, and I just don't feel i'm been playing them as profitably as I could. so when are these hands most playable? when should usually be folded?
 
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BobbySalami
Old 07-26-2005, 11:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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KTs and KTo are usually garbage hands IMO and should be folded PF. KTs I only like to play in LP with many callers......

Also, these are good hands to raise with to try and steal blinds if you are in a tight game and are looking to take pots without a showdown.

But they are still always situation dependant.....
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aislephive
Old 07-26-2005, 11:43 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySalami
KTs and KTo are usually garbage hands IMO and should be folded PF. KTs I only like to play in LP with many callers......

Also, these are good hands to raise with to try and steal blinds if you are in a tight game and are looking to take pots without a showdown.

But they are still always situation dependant.....
The problem with raising in late position in order to steal the blinds you need to make a large bet to scare everybody off. If you get that far, there's a decent chance somebody calls you. If you flop a King, you still have a good shot at being the underdog as KT is dominated by KJ,KQ,KK, AK,AA. When I attempt to steal blinds I tend to do it with a pocket pair, as they tend to be large favorites head to head no matter if it's 22 or AA because they don't need to improve to win the hand.
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BobbySalami
Old 07-27-2005, 02:16 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Well, I assumed we were talking about ring games......If you are in the button or CO against 2 or 3 random hands there is no risk in raising to take down the blinds...you dont need to make an abnormally large raise to take the blinds.

Your regular 3-4xBB PFR will do the trick more often than not...and if you get a caller you can most often than not make a continuation bet to take it down. They will let you know if you are beat.........
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bair
Old 07-27-2005, 02:43 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aislephive
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySalami
KTs and KTo are usually garbage hands IMO and should be folded PF. KTs I only like to play in LP with many callers......

Also, these are good hands to raise with to try and steal blinds if you are in a tight game and are looking to take pots without a showdown.

But they are still always situation dependant.....
The problem with raising in late position in order to steal the blinds you need to make a large bet to scare everybody off. If you get that far, there's a decent chance somebody calls you. If you flop a King, you still have a good shot at being the underdog as KT is dominated by KJ,KQ,KK, AK,AA. When I attempt to steal blinds I tend to do it with a pocket pair, as they tend to be large favorites head to head no matter if it's 22 or AA because they don't need to improve to win the hand.
that makes absolutely no sense, they call it stealing blinds because you dont have a great hand. you dont need to make a large bet AT ALL to steal the blinds...3x the bb almost always does just fine. KT is a GREAT hand to steal blinds with considering it is way better than any 2 random hands, which are the small and big blind assuming you are on the button and no one else limped in, which is obviously the only time you steal blinds (or from CO). if you only steal blinds with pocket pairs then you are missing out a lot, since you arent even stealing considering you have a made hand. read the billion stickies on this forum since you are obviously new and need some help on the concept of blind stealing. check the MTT and SNG guides.
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Lukie
Old 07-27-2005, 03:49 AM     Post subject: Re: Playing "Broadway" Hands #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Bankroll
me and a friend were debating about how to best play these hands in a full 10-handed ring game, standard $25 NL PartyPoker stuff. so how would you play these in early/middle/late position?

AJs
AJo
ATs
ATo
KQs
KQo
KJs
KJo
QJs
QJo
QTs
QTo
JTs
JTo
This just isn't something that can be answered. Playing AJs in late position as opposed to QTo in early position is worlds apart. However, there is 1 thing that all of these hands have in common. They are all easily dominated, so play them with caution, especially if someone is showing strength preflop.

- Lukie
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underminedsk
Old 07-27-2005, 03:51 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Normally, I'm folding KQo and lower if I dont think I have position for the hand. Suited Cards a bit different, because they get the added bonus of a flush. I limp JTs, ATs, KQs, and AJs depending on the situation. I also very occasionally raise these hands if the situation presents itself. (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aislephive
The problem with raising in late position in order to steal the blinds you need to make a large bet to scare everybody off. If you get that far, there's a decent chance somebody calls you. If you flop a King, you still have a good shot at being the underdog as KT is dominated by KJ,KQ,KK, AK,AA. When I attempt to steal blinds I tend to do it with a pocket pair, as they tend to be large favorites head to head no matter if it's 22 or AA because they don't need to improve to win the hand.
What??? Dont steal blinds with your low pocket pairs. You want to hit your set and get paid off huge by TPTK, two pair, or whatever. NL25 tables will give you implied odds up the ass for this. Trust me, its far more profitable to limp in your low pockets then to steal with them.

You are right that such a marginal hand as KT, AT, AJ, will often be dominated, and you are also right that if you raise, the people that call might very well have you dominated. But I still blind steal with these hands if I get the chance (I'm on button or C/O and there are a few weak/tight limpers before me). A3-4xbb raise is very weak in NL25, in my opinion. When I played NL25, my minimum preflop raise was 8xbb ($2), enough to appropiately steal the blinds or isloate the hand to heads up to the flop. The key here is that you arent looking to pair on the flop, but rather you are looking for your opponent to not pair. If you isloated properly, hitting that K with KT isnt such a great hand. But your opponnent is going to miss most of the time also, and you can use your positon to push him out of the flop when he checks to you.. It's a profitable play in the long term.
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Greedo017
Old 07-27-2005, 07:05 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 "What??? Dont steal blinds with your low pocket pairs. You want to hit your set and get paid off huge by TPTK, two pair, or whatever. NL25 tables will give you implied odds up the ass for this. Trust me, its far more profitable to limp in your low pockets then to steal with them."

I saw chris ferguson talking about this one time. the basic idea is you don't want to be "bluffing" with a hand that potentially has showdown value, because you're jeapordizing the showdown value of the hand. he was more talking about situations where you for example have tpgk and think it might be good, and try to bluff someone out on the river, when you're really probably better off making a value bet and showing down: save the bluffs for a moneymaker style all-in with nothing. but, its the same kindof idea with pocket pairs. don't try to bluff people out with a good hand, try to keep them in.
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The_Bankroll
Old 07-27-2005, 03:01 PM #11 (permalink)  
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ok, but since if a raise is called there's a chance your dominated, do you think it's good to limp with hands like AT, KQ, & KJ in late position, because if you do hit your pair on the flop, chances are your hand is good because most of the time someone with dominating hand would have raised preflop?
 
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Element187
Old 07-27-2005, 03:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySalami
Well, I assumed we were talking about ring games......If you are in the button or CO against 2 or 3 random hands there is no risk in raising to take down the blinds...you dont need to make an abnormally large raise to take the blinds.

Your regular 3-4xBB PFR will do the trick more often than not...and if you get a caller you can most often than not make a continuation bet to take it down. They will let you know if you are beat.........
salami speaks the truth.

any two cards is good enough for a blind steal, just represent the flop if its checked to you, and if they call, or raise slowdown/fold
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Rondavu
Old 07-28-2005, 01:09 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I'd like to address the original question. The reason some people make a lot of money at poker, is because a lot of other people have the frame of mind you're presenting through your thread opener. Formulating a set way to play certain cards is not a good strategy. Try formulating a set way to play certain types of opponents. That's the right direction.

I was playing against this guy at a limit table who kept raising weak, and I had strong position on him. He was raising stuff like A8, Q8, K6s. It seems I was the only one at the 6max table who noticed this. So I was reraising every broadway hand. I was reraising JTo against this guy, isolating, and then outplaying him postflop. You wouldn't reraise anything but premium hands against most opponents, but against this one the plan changed.
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SteveO
Old 07-28-2005, 06:17 PM #14 (permalink)  
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What is the table like? Are there lots of multi-way cheap flops, or are people playing strong?

I prefer suited broadway connectors but will take unsuited "flyers" as well at a weak table. If you can count on a lot of limpers, you can limp in from any position with such hands and you can occassionally raise from late position just to mix up your play. What you are looking for is a big flop with something like 2 pair (but be very wary of str8 draws when you make your 2 pair with these hands and make sure you are not giving the proper odds when you bet out on the flop). You are also looking for the OESD. It will be well disguised and with all those limpers you can probably see the turn for the right price and even semi-bluff the draw to mix it up.

You can play those hands but you have to be careful. If you hit TP and someone bets into you, re-raise to find out how serious the other guy is. If someone makes a huge play on you it is an easy lay down.

Another important factor is how deep is the money. If you are playing the draws will you have big implied odds to destack someone with a lot of chips? Don't mess around with a short stack because it's not worth it.

Unless you hit a monster flop or pick up a big draw, don't get to crazy with these hands against multiple opponents.

Be careful with the soooted hands. Preferably, the A will make an appearance on the board when you are playing KJs and you will have the nuts before you get too crazy with the hand. I will semi bluff with the non-nut flush but be very careful when someone comes after you with their trashy Axs.

So the answer is you can play them from any position for cheap but be careful because you can easily be dominated. You can raise em once in a while, let's say 20-30% in late position just to mix it up. You'll never get paid off for your AA and KK if you never raise with other hands assuming your opponents are not complete donks which is sometimes the case at $25 tables. Tournament strategy is a different matter and this won't apply unless you are in the early levels with plenty of chips.

If you are at a very aggressive table where your opponents are repeatedly playing very strong pre-flop, stay away from these hands and just trap/drop the hammer with your premium pairs.
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