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Playing AK and hit your flop?
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tbone
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10-28-2004, 01:52 PM
Post subject: Playing AK and hit your flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 38
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Just a side question to the question before. Lets take the previous example of playing Ak but instead of the J in the flop lets say you hit your K and you bet 2/3 the pot but get called. Do you bet again on hte turn or check/raise or check fold to a raise. Thinking player in the SB didnot reraise could he have cuaght trips. I have been burnt several times hitting top pair with top kicker and have my opponent call me on hte flop then the turn and then raise me on hte river to have trips. When dp you lay down your top pair with top kicker?
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DrNoChance
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 411
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It makes a huge difference whether or not you raised pre-flop. I rarely let TPTK go with AK if I raised pre-flop. Sure, they could have the set...but more often than not they have top pair with a worse kicker. There's exceptions to every rule....flop comes with 3 face cards and I only have 1 pair...flop comes 3 of a suit that I don't hold (and there's heavy action)...but as a general rule I treat a pair of aces/kings when I hold AK in a raised pot as a pretty strong hand. You'll run into trips at times, as well as AA when you've hit your K. You can't let that stop you from playing AK strongly when you raised pre-flop and it hits. In an unraised pot, espcially a multiway, 1-pair is just not as strong and you have to consider folding it when there's heavy heat.
Post some hand histories where you've hit AK. The texture of the flop and the pre-flop action does matter a lot, so it's hard to advise you much more than this without seeing some specific hands.
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Krapp
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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I view TPTK hands not super-great and therefore do not normally expect to win big-pots with them, especially out-of-position. Personally, I dont play them overly aggressive from the front and would bet just enough to discourage pot-odd draws. I would prefer 25%-50% percent of the pot on flop/turn and evaluate any playback (or non-playback) from the opp...
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DrNoChance
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 411
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
I view TPTK hands not super-great and therefore do not normally expect to win big-pots with them, especially out-of-position. Personally, I dont play them overly aggressive from the front and would bet just enough to discourage pot-odd draws. I would prefer 25%-50% percent of the pot on flop/turn and evaluate any playback (or non-playback) from the opp...
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IMO 25%-50% of the pot doesn't discourage many draws. Why should it? 50% almost gives pot odds to chase a flush, and if there's any implied odds there (if you don't completely shut down when the scare card hits) they should chase draws for that price. I bet more in the range of 75%-100% of the pot on the flop. I may slow down a little on the turn since the implied odds aren't as high (50%-75%).
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Manomanman
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 122
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When I'm playing, 1 factor matters to me. 1) What is my/his stack size? It's an easily overlookable factor, but let's think about it.
For this example, blinds are .25sb/.50bb. Assume you are heads-up every time.
a) Either you or your opponent has 5.00max in front of you. It was raised 5xbb, so there is now about $5 in the pot. On the flop, you now have enough money to bet half the pot, so your opponent must call 2.50 to get 7.50. To call you must put in 33% of the pot, so pot odds says a flush draw or better will call. There are no implied odds (somebody is all in).
b) One of you has 10.00max in front of you. Same preflop bet. On the flop, you bet the pot, so now your opponent must call 5.00 to get 10.00. The bet is 50% of the pot, so unless it's a race, it's inconceivable that a very bright opponent will call you. Also, there are no implied odds.
c) Both of you have 130.00 in front of you. Same preflop bet. On the flop, you bet the pot, and your opponent calls with a pair of 2's. The turn looks like a blank, you bet the pot again ($20) and he calls with a pair of deuces. The river looks like a blank, you bet $50 more, he reraises, you call. He hit a miracle 2 pair on the river. "WHY THE HELL DID HE KEEP CALLING? I MADE HIM MAKE A MATHEMATICAL MISTAKE!!!" It was only slightly mathematically incorrect for him to stay with a 20% chance to win against TPTK if he knows (100%) you will go all in on the river. He was getting 127.50 by calling 2.50, 122.50 by calling 5 more, 112.50 by calling 20 more (here is his error; he has a 10% chance to win with a 5 outer, so he should lay it down to this bet), but the rest of your stack by calling on the river. So his overall -EV here was the $20 call on the turn; because he will fold the river if he blanks, his implied odds were cut in half and he was paying you $10 to make this call on the turn, all things being equal.
In a casino, I've seen guys call 9xbb raises with 7 8 offsuit. Why do they do this? Because a big fat stack made this raise preflop, they were equally-stacked, and the guy who made the "poor" call knew that the big stack would give him action if he connected with the flop. (In reality, the 7 8 offsuit caller flopped a straight and the 9xbb raiser had AA. The guy with 7 8 won a HUGE pot.)
The way you play through your hands will depend on imlied odds, if your opponents know what those are. If they are stupid fish, then just raise the hell out of the pot and let them "gamble" on whatever crap cards they have. If they flopped a set then they made a mathematical mistake against you preflop (assuming you do have a relatively moderate stack and you raised it enough preflop) because there were no implied odds.
To answer your question, don't worry about laying it down. The only time you should every lay it down on the flop is if you get pushed all-in or check-raised huge on the flop from a tight player...and do you really have to "worry" when you make this laydown?
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Krapp
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrNoChance
IMO 25%-50% of the pot doesn't discourage many draws. Why should it? 50% almost gives pot odds to chase a flush, and if there's any implied odds there (if you don't completely shut down when the scare card hits) they should chase draws for that price. I bet more in the range of 75%-100% of the pot on the flop. I may slow down a little on the turn since the implied odds aren't as high (50%-75%).
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I dont disagree with the implied odds, but my general comment is if you bet significantly more than the pot odds, thats a high-risk play. Works well for the loose chasers, not-so-good for the tight/aggressives or tight/passives.
One note: 50% is not almost pot odds. From what I remember its 20% to chase the turn and 33% to chase the turn w/ free river card. Addionally if you raised preflop, probably the starting pot is half your money to begin with.
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