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bdawg56kg
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10-27-2004, 11:25 AM
Post subject: Playing AK after a garbage flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Heres the situation. At a 6 person table, I am UTG and dealt big slick, so I make a 5x BB raise. Everyone folds, small blind calls and BB folds. Flop is garbage (I think it was 49J rainbow). SB checks, and now its my turn, but this is where I'm stuck. I figure theres probably a good chance I'm behind on the hand, so I figure I have 2 choices. Do I overbet the pot to try and buy it since I showed strength before the flop, and my opponent didn't show any sign of strength so far, or do I just check again and hope to pair up on the turn and be prepared to fold to any raise. As it turned out, I bet about 10x BB and he folded, but I'm not sure my logic was right. From what I could gather, he is fairly loose (likes to bet with tp low kicker, chases flushes, straights, etc), and sure enough, he turned over Q9o and was pretty pissed that he folded the winning hand.
I think I actually made the wrong decision and should have checked, considering he is a fairly loose player. I know I won here, but will this kind of strategy end up costing me in the long run? Thanks.
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xbones
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Isle of Man, GB
Posts: 264
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If he's loose and he checked a pot sized bet is appropriate I think. Turned out the right move if he folded - If he calls check/fold the turn if no help comes.
On another note, why show him your cards? You're giving him information for the next time.
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YNWA
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zilch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 156
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I'm not sure why you think that you are behind here. He could well have AQ or KQ, (suited or not) or less depending on how loose they are. I think you need to take a stab at the pot to see where you are. Your opp may put you on a high PP and not necessarily on just overcards. As xbones says a pot size bet is probably the best bet here. If they are ahead with a PP of some kind that is less than the J then they have the difficult decision to make.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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I think you should play the hand as xbones avatar would, the $$$ will come rolling in.
My only problem with a pot sized bet is that in lower NL games, the pot may not be that built up yet and some people aren't as easy to scare off. I've found with the crazy loose players that a pot bet will get callers who have some crazy draw. Sure they end up losing for the most part but I'd rather have them catch their 1/100 luck draw against some other player so depending on the blinds I like to sometimes raise to a lot more then the pot.
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xbones
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Isle of Man, GB
Posts: 264
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Yeah I was presuming the 6 Max 25nl tables at Party, a 5BB raise would put about $5 in the pot, so another $5 is a fair raise. Or am I giving too much credit to Party Players?
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YNWA
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Behlen
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1
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he did mention a 5x BB raise before flop so id assume the pot was at least a decent size (over 10x bb). Who knows tho.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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ditto what everyone else said.
in a situation like you described, i would bet ~ 2/3 of the pot.
my logic:
- 2/3's of the pot doesn't look quite as much like a steal as a pot sized bet
- if you get called or reraised, you've invested a little less
- 2/3's of the pot can be interpreted as you're trying to make a callable bet, which might send up a warning flag with a semi-observant player
either way, you made a good choice in betting and not checking. but for the love of god, don't show your hand after a semi-bluff (i'm assuming if the other guy was mad, you showed your hand).
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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I don't know. I like showing my bluffs to loose players. Helps confuse them with my tight aggressive play.
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DavSimon
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 813
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Just to throw more suport out there....Just because he called your preflop raise does not mean you should slow down after the flop, particularly when he check it off to you. He either hit his flop and is trying to trap you or he missed and is afraid to get reraised if he bets. I would always throw out a pot sized bet in that situation. He will fold (like he did) - Reraise (then you fold) - or just call - then you re-evaluate your position on the turn. I think it was a solid aggressive play.
Oh yea....don't show your cards unless he pays to see them! If he turns his over, and give you that expectant look....just say nice hand or nice lay down and muck....keep him guessing.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fishstick
ditto what everyone else said.
in a situation like you described, i would bet ~ 2/3 of the pot.
my logic:
- 2/3's of the pot doesn't look quite as much like a steal as a pot sized bet
- if you get called or reraised, you've invested a little less
- 2/3's of the pot can be interpreted as you're trying to make a callable bet, which might send up a warning flag with a semi-observant player
either way, you made a good choice in betting and not checking. but for the love of god, don't show your hand after a semi-bluff (i'm assuming if the other guy was mad, you showed your hand).
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Heh, and here I was thinking I invented this the other night. I guess I don't really have anything to add other than the fact that I agree with your logic.
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DrNoChance
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 411
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To give a different take on this, TJ Cloutier hates playing aggressive vs. raggy flops with AK. I think he's used to playing against people who are less likely to call pre-flop raises with non-pocket pair hands. Against looser competition, it's more likely that a raggy flop means that they have nothing and betting when checked to is more appropriate.
As Fnord once said: "AK isn't a drawing hand if nobody has made a pair. They are all drawing against you!"
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fishstick
ditto what everyone else said.
in a situation like you described, i would bet ~ 2/3 of the pot.
my logic:
- 2/3's of the pot doesn't look quite as much like a steal as a pot sized bet
- if you get called or reraised, you've invested a little less
- 2/3's of the pot can be interpreted as you're trying to make a callable bet, which might send up a warning flag with a semi-observant player
either way, you made a good choice in betting and not checking. but for the love of god, don't show your hand after a semi-bluff (i'm assuming if the other guy was mad, you showed your hand).
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Agreed. I almost always lead into the flop with a 2/3 pot size pot if I raised preflop, whether I have a set or 6-high and no draw.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrNoChance
To give a different take on this, TJ Cloutier hates playing aggressive vs. raggy flops with AK. I think he's used to playing against people who are less likely to call pre-flop raises with non-pocket pair hands. Against looser competition, it's more likely that a raggy flop means that they have nothing and betting when checked to is more appropriate.
As Fnord once said: "AK isn't a drawing hand if nobody has made a pair. They are all drawing against you!"
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this is one thing i would criticize his books for. however, he is talking about a tournament situation, and a lot of his AK advice seems to be driven by not calling all-ins preflop with AK on a full table early in the tourney.
you've raised with AK preflop UTG, get one or two callers, and the flop is 279 rainbow. action's on you so you semibluff bet. let them figure out whether you raised preflop with 99. and if they're sitting there with TT or JJ and are playing it passively, there's a good chance your flop bet bought you a free turn card, and you've got 6 outs to beat them.
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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Krapp
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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Personally, I think 5x is a bit much for an AK preflop raise. It almost commits you to betting something on the flop. If you dont, its probably a leak. Why is 5x preflop raise too much (to me)? Well in the current situation, assuming you bet the flop (5x+), 67% of the time youll be risking 10x chips without a pair. If the normal buy-in to the table is 100x thats about 10% of your chips. Granted if your in position (out-of-position, this is very bad), you have the extra factor of the opp folding, but I do see that as a high-risk play. Additionally, what do you do if someone does a min-raise preflop or flop? What is the normal preflop raise with other hole cards (e.g. AJs, TT, etc)? If its also 5x, thats seems very laggy
If you choose to bet a little less preflop (e.g. 2x-3x), you then allow yourself the option to check if you miss, fold to a big re-raise, call to a min-raise, etc.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
Personally, I think 5x is a bit much for an AK preflop raise. It almost commits you to betting something on the flop. If you dont, its probably a leak. Why is 5x preflop raise too much (to me)? Well in the current situation, assuming you bet the flop (5x+), 67% of the time youll be risking 10x chips without a pair. If the normal buy-in to the table is 100x thats about 10% of your chips. Granted if your in position (out-of-position, this is very bad), you have the extra factor of the opp folding, but I do see that as a high-risk play. Additionally, what do you do if someone does a min-raise preflop or flop? What is the normal preflop raise with other hole cards (e.g. AJs, TT, etc)? If its also 5x, thats seems very laggy
If you choose to bet a little less preflop (e.g. 2x-3x), you then allow yourself the option to check if you miss, fold to a big re-raise, call to a min-raise, etc.
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in regard to games like the party $25 NL and stars .10/.25 NL, you still get some "micro-limit" mentality in that some people respond to bets/raises based on the dollar amount rather than the "times the BB" amount you've raised.
especially in the party $25 game, you'd better be betting/raising more than $2 (4xBB) if you're trying to limit the field and really don't want a lot of callers.
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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Gatorcon
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 30
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I usually play the $25NL at Party and I agree with fishstick, 2 or 3 X BB is only 1.00 or 1.50. You will get everyone with their .50 in to automatically call. $2.00 to $2.50 and you'll get 1 or 2 callers and anything more than that seems like your trying to buy the pot.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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The blinds were .25/.50. Also, I showed my hand hoping to put the guy on tilt, but I should've known that the pot wasn't big enough to do that. However, what I'm more interested in is the general case where AK doens't hit the flop. In a mult-way pot, is it pretty safe to assume that you are trailing if the flop doesn't hit, and therefore you should just check and fold? But if it is a multi-way pot, does that mean you should've raised more preflop to get the weaker hands out? If its heads up after the flop can you assume there is about a 50/50 chance you are trailing (after all you only have Ace high), and try to take a stab at the pot? Thanks for all the replys guys.
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DavSimon
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mount Holly, NC
Posts: 813
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It is hard to advise you on what to generally do with A-K...how I play it differers with the texture of the table. If I am at a somewhat tight table (lots of folding to a preflop or post flop raise In late position (last 3 seats) I will often treat A-Ks like a small to middle pair preflop. If the pot is unraised or min raised I will reraise it to 5x BB. (I usually play at $.25/.50 or $.50/1) anything less than $3-5 to go at these levels will go unnoticed and get called. If I hot the flop - great....if not I proceed with caution. I miss and If most everyone limps in front of me then they are still drawing at a hand or have made 2nd or 3dr pair. I will raise it to at least what I bet preflop. If I get reraised and there is flush or straight potential out there and I don't have a piece of it - let it go. That post flop bet will usually get rid of everyone except the really strong hands, if I get called by 1-2 people post flop, it is pretty easy to figure out where you are in the hand, by what cards flop. Call it Laggy call it Slaggy....I tend to think of it as selective aggression. I choose starting hands carefully...and only see about 23-25% of the flops. But when I am in one I tend to play it very aggressively....whether I flopped a made hand or I'm still drawing at it.
I guess my whole (longwinded) point is: if you stab at a pot pre-flop and don't take it right there - do not be inclined to give up so easily...within reason and common sense bet at it again.
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dar103
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 85
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This dicusssion made me think about a probable leak in my game. AK in position PFR 4xBB gets 2 callers. Rainbow rags on flop, checked to me, pot size bet gets 1 caller. Turn is blank, checked to me. What to do here?
1) I make another bet, somewhere between the previous bet and pot size. It seems like most of the time I bet, I get called. Am I right to assume that I'm behind here and without help I should check/fold the river?
2) I check. This tells him I think I'm behind and he'll bet at me on the river almost every time, where if I'm unimproved I'll fold.
What thoughts do you guys have about this?
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Krapp
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dar103
This dicusssion made me think about a probable leak in my game. AK in position PFR 4xBB gets 2 callers. Rainbow rags on flop, checked to me, pot size bet gets 1 caller. Turn is blank, checked to me. What to do here?
1) I make another bet, somewhere between the previous bet and pot size. It seems like most of the time I bet, I get called. Am I right to assume that I'm behind here and without help I should check/fold the river?
2) I check. This tells him I think I'm behind and he'll bet at me on the river almost every time, where if I'm unimproved I'll fold.
What thoughts do you guys have about this?
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Thats the tough part of pot size bets with no hits on the flop. Any good opp that calls a pot size bet on the flop must have something, espcially out-of-position. Generally, it makes no sense to keep firing at a pot w/o anything in your hand. Your hope is opp folds the turn/river. Very unlikely if they are calling a pot size bet on the flop.
A few things you can do:
- Check the flop. Its completely appropriate to check the flop if you miss. It might be a bit passive, but against loose/passive opps, its the correct thing do to.
- Bet the flop. The main reason is to buy the pot. You are semi-bluffing and in position. Generally speaking, fire once and stop. If the opp is tight/aggressive this would be a good play.
- Firing 2x at the pot might be ok if you absolutely know the opp is on a draw. In that case, you have the best hand and are obligated to make the opp pay for the next card.
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dar103
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 85
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
- Check the flop. Its completely appropriate to check the flop if you miss. It might be a bit passive, but against loose/passive opps, its the correct thing do to.
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Wow, that seems to go against everything I thought I knew about this game. It just seems way too passive.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
- Bet the flop. The main reason is to buy the pot. You are semi-bluffing and in position. Generally speaking, fire once and stop. If the opp is tight/aggressive this would be a good play.
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This feels like the right play to me. I need to remind myself to stop firing on the turn unless improved.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
- Firing 2x at the pot might be ok if you absolutely know the opp is on a draw. In that case, you have the best hand and are obligated to make the opp pay for the next card.
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Hard to be certain of this.
I'll be interested to read other's thoughts on this as they check in over the weekend. I guess in most cases I'd lean toward the fire once and then check/fold.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Wow, that seems to go against everything I thought I knew about this game. It just seems way too passive.
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Well, let's think about it.
AKos - rainbow rag flop agianst LOOSE PASSIVE.
So, they called your PFR, but that means dick, unless they are not really that loose.
So, they could have anything - 3 to a straight, 3 to a flush, Ax, 2 undercards, small pocket.
I guess we can ignore the runner-runner straights and flushes (50:1 shots), but with a random hand, post flop:
Set: 0.7% - OK, we can ignore that. -
Pocket Pair, say Ts or lower, not a set (6 possible): 3%
Pair, matching the board (3 possible): 33% -
So, 36% of the time you are a 3:1 dog, and the rest of the time you are in the lead, facing 2 under cards and are a 3:1 overcat.
So, EV is ++++ to bet BUT the guy is not only loose, but PASSIVE. So he's not going to bluff you on the flop. If you check, and he bets something sizable, you can put him on a pair, you are the dog, and you should muck.
Of course, the LP will assuridly bet like 20% fo the pot forcing you to say "goddammit make your mind!!!"
BTW - I am pretty new here, so BE SURE TO CHECK MY MATH.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Fire once, check/fold. I almost always get burned when I forget this rule and fire at the turn. The inevitable result: call on the turn, I check or bet the river and get raised either way, and end up folding or calling a guy with top pair.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Fire once, check/fold. I almost always get burned when I forget this rule and fire at the turn. The inevitable result: call on the turn, I check or bet the river and get raised either way, and end up folding or calling a guy with top pair.
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i would agree with this.
generally, if you fire again on the turn and it's called, they've got something. it might be a pair of 2's, but you're still beat. and then, what can you do but check the river (they're now "invested" and aren't going away without a large river bet) - checking the river is like putting a "kick me" sign on your back!
i'm assuming we're talking no limit here - if it's limit, it's down to pot odds justifying your continuing to draw (if you think pairing the A or K will hold up).
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