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denouement

06-12-2005, 12:48 AM Post subject: playing against overy aggressive players

#1 (permalink)

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As a general rule, do you play against players who are more aggressive than they should be by allowing them to dictacte the pace of the game, not playing back at them too much and letting them think they can walk all over you?

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ekillian

06-12-2005, 12:52 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Depends how they continue their aggression when faced with counter-aggression.

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BiloxiMS

06-12-2005, 05:03 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Depends.

Show me someone who takes poker hands personally, and i'll show you someone who I can drain in three or four choice hands.

So some fish comes into the room and starts going A/I with every hand, and you feel like you're being 'bullied' because you're folding.
View these morons as an oppurtunity.
They can be frustrating, as they usually involve more gambling than playing with a better group (calling his all-in with the pocket jacks only have the moron luck out and fill in a straight with his offsuit 5/8

) but if you play them right, they're money in the bank.

It's a matter of being patient at the right times, and aggressive at the right times. Of course, that tends to sum up poker no matter who you are playing against; it just gets a little more pronounced when you're playing against an 18 year old who deposited his part-time job paycheck with pokerstars and is playing it like a high roller.

Element187

06-15-2005, 04:56 AM Post subject: Re: playing against overy aggressive players

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by denouement

playing against overy aggressive players

i'd play cautious here, you dont want to get her pregnant, wear a rubber or fold preflop.

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ChezJ

06-15-2005, 06:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

i let them run the table then i trap them for huge pots by acting weak with the nuts. e.g. last night i limped in with 32 in the SB and knew LAG man had nothing because he didn't raise pre flop (he played every hand). flop came A4X and we checked it around. turn was a 5 and i bet a tiny amount, he called. river was nothing and i sat there carefully counting the pot size, then made a half-pot bet while he openly mocked me for playing "by the book." predictably, he raised an enormous amount to push me out of the pot. i looked at the board again, confirmed that my straight was the nuts, acted confused, then reraised him. he called and i scooped a huge pot, crippling his stack.

ChezJ

journey075

06-15-2005, 08:34 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

acting weak works beautifully to bring out the shark in some people...however, acting weak and then raising is an obvious tell that you have a monster. i dunno about doing this with anyone competent.

YoungRounder

06-16-2005, 04:07 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Oregon

Posts: 14

Bullies like these are usualy inexperienced players. They usualy dont have much of a grasp on the game and think that a bluff is a tool around every bad hand. Now in this situation the most important thing is be patient. Get them confident, let them think they can get you out of any hand. When they get cocky, they will try to bust more and more players, and make greedy calls with a large stack. we have all seen players like this. Just wait it out, then when you catch a hand, luer them in with smaller bets to get them pot committed, then make the big move.

Whether you win, or you loose, there is always something you can learn.

Bmxicle

06-16-2005, 05:12 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Bad aggressive players i really like to play against, it just requires a little patience while you wait for a hand. When i run into a really good aggressive player i can't leave the table fast enough.

Luckily Most Aggressive players are of the unskilled variety.

AcesInTheHole

06-16-2005, 09:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Beaverton, Oregon

Posts: 18

I noticed everyone answered the same... but I guess it's true. That is really the best way to go at and overly aggressive player. Seeing as they love to push people around, really they're just making it so you don't have to beat them for, they've already began to beat themselves

dalecooper

06-16-2005, 02:03 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

How to deal with an overly aggressive player. Or in this case, two of them. (But I think Puffies_ just kind of got caught in a crossfire and didn't realize I had a real hand here. Nippy is super-aggressive and we were all out to get him/her.)

***** Hand History for Game 2215316168 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Thursday, June 16, 09:52:45 EDT 2005
Table Table 36744 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: SynthXP ( $52 )
Seat 3: thefarol ( $70.9 )
Seat 4: Puffies_ ( $138.15 )
Seat 5: nippy6 ( $40.45 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $50.45 )
Seat 2: Udogs01 ( $17.71 )
stressball10 posts small blind [$0.25].
SynthXP posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 8c 8h ]
Udogs01 folds.
thefarol folds.
Puffies_ calls [$0.5].
nippy6 raises [$4].
stressball10 calls [$3.75].
SynthXP folds.
Puffies_ calls [$3.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 8s, 2s ]
stressball10 checks.
Puffies_ checks.
nippy6 bets [$9].
stressball10 calls [$9].
Puffies_ is all-In [$134.15]
nippy6 folds.
stressball10 is all-In [$37.45]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ks ]
stressball10 shows [ 8c, 8h ] a full house, Eights full of kings.
Puffies_ shows [ Js, 9s ] a flush, king high.
Puffies_ wins $87.7 from side pot #1 with a flush, king high.
stressball10 wins $112.4 from the main pot with a full house, Eights full of kings.
Puffies_ has left the table.

Not much later, somebody else takes a turn pimp-slapping Nippy:

***** Hand History for Game 2215328384 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Thursday, June 16, 10:00:00 EDT 2005
Table Table 36744 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: SynthXP ( $48.5 )
Seat 3: thefarol ( $70 )
Seat 5: nippy6 ( $30.2 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $116.7 )
Seat 4: NeoSlayer ( $31.5 )
nippy6 posts small blind [$0.25].
stressball10 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 4h 8h ]
SynthXP folds.
thefarol calls [$0.5].
NeoSlayer calls [$0.5].
nippy6 raises [$4.75].
stressball10 folds.
thefarol folds.
NeoSlayer calls [$4.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, As, 2s ]
nippy6 bets [$10].
vincent5944 has joined the table.
NeoSlayer is all-In [$26.5]
nippy6 is all-In [$15.2]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
nippy6 shows [ 4s, 7s ] a pair of twos.
NeoSlayer shows [ Jd, Jc ] two pairs, jacks and twos.
NeoSlayer wins $1.3 from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and twos.
NeoSlayer wins $59.4 from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and twos.

Element187

06-16-2005, 07:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesInTheHole

That is really the best way to go at and overly aggressive player.

OOOOOOOOhhhhhhhh

he meant to say overly ??? i thought he just mispelled ovary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by denouement

playing against overy aggressive players

i'd play cautious here, you dont want to get her pregnant, wear a rubber or fold preflop.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

BiloxiMS

06-19-2005, 07:56 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Mississippi Coast

Posts: 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

When i run into a really good aggressive player i can't leave the table fast enough.

Totally agree.
When you look at the upper-cust of greats both past (Ungar- arguably the greatest ever) and present (In My Opinion, Hansen is one of the better players out there), one thing you notice is their chip movement was/is very intense.
They combine a brilliant poker mind with an almost pathological desire to wager and an uncanny ability to read into peoples betting patterns. When you run into this rare sort of individual, it makes for an entirely different sort of game that's very hard to prepare for. Most of your winning, big money online players have this natural talent as well.

The only real way to practice for this sort of individual is to get on the biggest play money tables where the game is still played with reasonable caution but folks are far more liberal with their wagering.
Sure, what the hell- I'll go 10,000 hoping for a gut shot straight.
It's only play money...

lowBoy

06-19-2005, 09:39 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 513

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, As, 2s ]
nippy6 bets [$10].
vincent5944 has joined the table.
NeoSlayer is all-In [$26.5]
nippy6 is all-In [$15.2]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
nippy6 shows [ 4s, 7s ] a pair of twos.
NeoSlayer shows [ Jd, Jc ] two pairs, jacks and twos.
NeoSlayer wins $1.3 from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and twos.
NeoSlayer wins $59.4 from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and twos.

I like how he calls an all-in with only a flush draw. Love those players.

michael1123

06-19-2005, 11:31 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Funny, the JJ play was even worse. Can't let go of JJ with an A on the board, tsk tsk. The guy with the flush draw was commited to the pot after his flop bet.

JeffreyGB

06-19-2005, 12:53 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

Funny, the JJ play was even worse. Can't let go of JJ with an A on the board, tsk tsk. The guy with the flush draw was commited to the pot after his flop bet.

I'm sure that reads played a part here. That said, even a moron can catch a hand sometimes, so I question the hand too. Maniac's play was right for the odds he was getting...Would you be more in favor of reraising JJ preflop, given the known maniac at the table?

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michael1123

06-19-2005, 02:12 PM

#16 (permalink)

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If he's shown a tendency to bet 10xBB preflop with rags, for sure I'd reraise preflop. If he hadn't been raising that much, and the JJ guy is worried about the maniac having a better hand or a coinflip, that makes the post flop play even more attrocious.

The JJ guy calls a $5 bet preflop with JJ, and then shoves over a $10 bet on the flop for a total of $26.5 (over 5x what he put in preflop). Its just a horrible horrible play, unless the maniac showed him his cards after the flop.

Shoving after the flop with A3 makes more sense (forgetting the preflop action - since clearly A3 shouldn't be in the hand), and I'm sure everyone can see that that wouldn't be a good play. Many beginning players really have a hard time forgetting the preflop value of their pocket pair on the flop. With this flop, its trash.

BiloxiMS

06-19-2005, 09:03 PM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Mississippi Coast

Posts: 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

The guy with the flush draw was commited to the pot after his flop bet.

I think the whole concept of being 'commited to the pot' only really exists with lower grade players.

Say you have a Kh/Ks in the hole, the flop shows a Kd Xd Xd.
You bet hard and get called, and the river turns over another diamond.

Are you still betting into that pot? If the person with trip Kings is a rookie, he's still betting because he's 'pot commited'....

What distinguishes a great player from any other player isn't knowing when to play- hell, anyone with an IQ over 110 knows when to play... The great player knows when to bail.

Cocco_Bill

06-19-2005, 09:32 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BiloxiMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

The guy with the flush draw was commited to the pot after his flop bet.

hmm..

for all you know your opponent could have KA here and equally scared of the flush. Checking is just inviting a bluff and even if he does have the flush you have outs.

06-19-2005, 09:43 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Just as a sidenote, every time a look at the title of this topic, it reminds me of female repoductive organs. :P

BiloxiMS

06-19-2005, 11:10 PM

#20 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Mississippi Coast

Posts: 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

hmm..

for all you know your opponent could have KA here and equally scared of the flush. Checking is just inviting a bluff and even if he does have the flush you have outs.

We are talking raw odds here, not 'possibilities'. In a game of luck such as drawing cards, possibilities are endless. Probabilities are what grows the bank when the wagering component is factored in. Is it 'possible' that the opponent has the 4th king? Sure. Such is the nature of the game.
It's a helluva lot more likely that he has a phantom diamond, though.

The fact is, if you are playing against good players in a scenario like the one above (a scenario we've all been in up against the dirty flush...), they're going to view anything less than a serious post river wager as a prod bet- either because you've filled in a flush with a low diamond, or because you are sitting on something inferior to a flush and wanna know what they have.

michael1123

06-20-2005, 08:04 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BiloxiMS

I think the whole concept of being 'commited to the pot' only really exists with lower grade players.

Um .... maybe it would be more accurate to say that beginning players don't understand the concept of being pot commited. That KK example you gave had absolutely nothing to do with being commited to the pot, hell, you didn't even give stack size or pot size information, and that's what being commited is all about!

The player with the flush draw in the hand we were talking about had put $15 into the pot, and the player with JJ raised him all in on the flop for $15 more. There's $45 in the pot, and a decision to call $15 with a flush draw (35% chance of catching in what will be a $60 pot if he calls). He's easily commited with his hand, the size of the pot, and his stack, once he makes that $10 bet on the flop.

JeffreyGB

06-20-2005, 10:16 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

(35% chance of catching in what will be a $60 pot if he calls)

To nitpick a little more, shouldn't we be looking only at the size of the pot before he calls, since if he folded at this point, the $15 is still his (the only way it isn't is if he calls and loses)? Still, $15 to call in a $45 pot when you know that no additional bets will be coming...that's perfect odds for a flush draw; just better than the 35% for it to hit.

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michael1123

06-20-2005, 10:55 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

To nitpick a little more, shouldn't we be looking only at the size of the pot before he calls, since if he folded at this point, the $15 is still his (the only way it isn't is if he calls and loses)?

Not when figuring pot odds. Here's a simple example to make this obvious: You're heads up with no blinds (to make the math easier) and the other player shoves all in for his last $50, and you're faced with a decision to call or fold, and want to figure out the percentage of times you need to be correct to make this call.

The math for figuring pot odds is dividing the amount you have to put in by the total pot size (and then going on to compare this to your expected win %). If you had to put in $50 to win $50, 50/50 = 1, which means you'd mathmatically have to win every one to make it a smart call (because you'd just be getting your money back in this situation). Obviously that's not the correct way to figure it out. But once you figure that you're calling $50 to win a $100 pot (his bet plus your call), you get the correct answer of your pot odds being 50%, which it obviously always would be heads up with no blinds or other money in the pot.

So basically, this guy with the flush draw needs a 15/60, or 25% chance of winning the hand to make the call after his opponent raised him all in. A flush draw has a 35% chance of completing after the flop, so clearly he calls. Not figuring your call into the pot screws up the math.

ChezJ

06-20-2005, 08:47 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BiloxiMS

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

The guy with the flush draw was commited to the pot after his flop bet.

I think the whole concept of being 'commited to the pot' only really exists with lower grade players.

being pot committed usually refers to making a crying call on the river, not continuing to lead the betting in a hopeless situation.

i was watching ESPN's coverage of the final table at the 2004 WSOP and they had greg raymer commenting on the various plays. he said he didn't fault david williams for calling him down on the last hand because the guy was pot committed at that point. laying down a full house to end up with a totally crippled stack would have been a mistake.

maybe some would argue that raymer is "a lower grade player" but i would not.

ChezJ

loanhorse

06-24-2005, 03:45 AM

#25 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 212

Quote:

being pot committed usually refers to making a crying call on the river, not continuing to lead the betting in a hopeless situation

It's not just on the river. Its about making and calling bets that pay off in the long run. Thats why I think there is a fundamental difference between ring and SNG/MTTs. Even if you have the right pot odds to hit your flush in a SNG you might be discouraged by other factors such as risk of busting out, wanting short stack to bust out first, etc. While in ring, the pot odds are a vital aspect in making correct decisions that will pay off in the long run.

Element187

06-24-2005, 07:50 AM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Just as a sidenote, every time a look at the title of this topic, it reminds me of female repoductive organs. :P

oh i see how it is, trying to steal my thunder ... its on biotch .. its on like donkey kong.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

BiloxiMS

06-25-2005, 12:32 PM

#27 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Mississippi Coast

Posts: 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

That KK example you gave had absolutely nothing to do with being commited to the pot, hell, you didn't even give stack size or pot size information, and that's what being commited is all about!

Did you seriously not 'get' what I was saying there?
Did you honestly, truly not understand that?

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