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sarbox68

08-24-2007, 10:13 PM Post subject: Playing AA-TT

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Anyone who read this post here...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-59245.htm

... knows I'm getting my $10NL ass kicked with high pockets - AA-TT. Over my last 5K hands, here's what they've contributed to my BR:

AA (18x) -3.31
KK (30x) +.20
QQ (31x) -20.93
JJ (22x) - 3.73
TT (20x) -5.19

So I'm down over 3 BIs with these cards. Coming from the limit side where these are a nice part of my bread n' butter, this is driving me nuts. At this point I'd be up $33 if I'd just folded everything above 99!

AOK posted some good thoughts on the above link. So now I'm discounting the value of these hands post-flop and really trying to fold to any kind of aggression if I don't have at least a strong draw in addition to the overpair.

Session today was 725 hands FR. Ran 15/5.2/5.4. Ended up down $15.20. Here were my most notable pockets... comments appreciated.

Hand 1:
I'm going to start off with my big loss. This was hand # 750. KK, raised PF, flop all undercards but 2 hearts. I pot bet and get raised AI by a deep stack. Okay, I know I'm supposed to fold to aggression w/ only KK (and in this case, no flush draw). So I sat there for all the time I was allowed... I thought maybe a set, maybe AA, QQ, JJ, TT. But still seemed like a huge over bet, like trying to push me out with a lower pocket before I could pair something else or the flush hit. So I took it as bullsh!t - called and, well, no he didn't make a flush or a set...

One last caveat on this one... I'd just been in a similar situation holding AK with an A-high 3 club flop. Op had pushed, I called and he was holding AJo.

So my dilemma. If I'd folded there, I would have given up a big pot I should have won. If I folded here, I would have saved my stack.

God DAMN limit is less irritating...

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05./$0.10.
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $29.03
Hero: $9.69
UTG+2: $2.94
MP1: $9.53
MP2: $5.14
MP3: $4.80
CO: $4.30
Button: $9.99
SB: $1.31
BB: $6

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K

UTG calls, Hero raises to $0.4, 5 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 7

($1.35, 3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.35, Button raises all-in $9.59, UTG folds, Hero calls all-in $9.29.
Uncalled bets: $9.29 returned to Hero.

Turn: 4

($12.29, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $20.53)

River: A

($12.29, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $20.53)

Results:
Final pot: $12.29

Hand #2:
Normally I've been making a pot-sized bet on potential 4-flush flops. However, I've noticed this hasn't been pushing anybody off of their 4-flush, and just costing me more money when they hit their draw on the river. So tried the 1/2 pot flop bet, and when he wouldn't budge on that checked through the Turn, and of course the River when the flush completed.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05./$0.10.
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $3.38
UTG+1: $12.96
UTG+2: $8.18
MP1: $10
MP2: $9.79
MP3: $13.70
Hero: $9.75
Button: $9.47
SB: $5.57
BB: $17.93

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with K

UTG raises to $0.35, 5 folds, Hero raises to $1.2, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 6

($2.55, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.2, UTG calls.

Turn: 6

($4.95, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: 3

($4.95, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: $4.95

Hand # 3
I have a set, but see a straight draw and made flush or FD on the board. Bet out the turn get 3x raise. Old me would have called. New me folds.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($11.35)
MP3 ($12.75)
CO ($1.60)
Button ($14.58)
SB ($4.28)
BB ($13.19)
UTG ($5.79)
UTG+1 ($13.70)
Hero ($9.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T

, T

.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, MP2 calls $0.40, 5 folds.

Flop: ($0.95) 5

, Q

, T

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, MP2 calls $0.95.

Turn: ($2.85) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.4, MP2 raises to $3.45, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $5.65

Hand #4:
I've lost SO much money w/ QQ, that I read his a) calling my PFR, betting into me on the Flop AND calling my Flop raise as him having at least paired the K. On the turn he min-bets giving me 24:1 so I figured I'd fish for a set one more time. Then folded the River to .25.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP2 ($9.05)
MP3 ($22.56)
Hero ($9.50)
Button ($5.54)
SB ($10.86)
BB ($4.67)
UTG ($4.63)
UTG+1 ($5.37)
UTG+2 ($4.15)
MP1 ($9.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with

.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.6, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($1.45)

(3 players)
BB bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.5, BB calls $0.40.

Turn: ($2.45)

(3 players)
BB bets $0.1, Hero calls $0.10.

River: ($2.65)

(3 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $2.65

Thanks for any comments. I've gotta get a handle on these. Feel like I'm getting pushed off too much stuff if I give up to aggression early (the F AI I called w/ AK and won from AJ) but then lose my ass KK-AA the next time around.

One day at a time I guess....

..and where's my damn poker chip.......

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bigspenda73

08-24-2007, 10:22 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

omg at that last hand

euphoricism

08-24-2007, 10:41 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

1) Fine
2) Make a real bet on the flop. You gave up on this hand and cost yourself money.
3) DONT FOLD SETS. Even if by some miracle he's flopped a flush or turned a straight you've still got 10 outs. DONT FOLD SETS.
4) I dont even know what to say here. Folding the river was retardo, and I probably raise the turn about 85% of the time.

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sarbox68

08-25-2007, 03:40 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

#1: Lost another KK v AA AI flop push right after this one. I guess there's no way around it. Thx for validating the thought process at least.

KK is now my 3rd biggest losing hand....
#2: I don't find people fold at $10NL w/ FD on the flop to even pot-size bets. I think this has been costing me an f-load as I've been pushing 2/3 to pot bets on the flop and turn which are called behind me everytime... and then the flush hits on the river. All I've done is build a nice big pot for them with nothing but an overpair. Isn't this a bad idea, especially FR???
#3: So the general idea is I risk my stack on a set even w/ a blatant draw on the board like this? Then shouldn't I just push on the flop and potentially keep him out of drawing a 4th diamond on the river?
#4: Yeah... I know this hand looks retarded. But it's still got "I have at least a King" written all over it to me. Aren't I just handing him an extra BB when it's pretty obvious I'm toast? And isn't this overplaying unimproved QQ? (My #1 losing money hand)

I know there's no "right answer" to any of this sh!t. Just trying to reconcile the sometimes conflicting opinions to improve my game.

Thx for the time!

nUFamn

08-25-2007, 02:57 PM

#5 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 106

#3: *cries at the set* Yea, sets are tricky but I think the above comments are right.. still a lot of outs for Quads or a Boat. The other night I had pocket KK, board came AKQ... two people raised, and I couldn't get away from it so I called their all-ins. One had a straight, one had like AK or AQ. Realistically, it was a bad call, I feel. But the turn gave me a boat (A) and the river gave me quads (K). If only that crap would happen on two different hands... haha.

#4: I wouldn't have folded to a bet that's, what, 1/12 of the pot on the river? You're like me, you've been burned by cards. A bet that small is A) just trying to milk one more bet out of you or B) a weak pair and he thinks you have nothing. Regardless, I'd call for sure. If you start folding 2nd best pair to a bet that small, seems like you're giving too much power to opponents. Granted, I'd probably feel the same "that bastard has K4o an will beat my queens," but .25 wouldn't make me fold.

Anyways, good luck brotha, I'm still messing around at 10nl also... and after I looked at PT, I noticed I've lost like $2 with 10 hands of AA... so I'm in a very similar boat.

"Let me tell ya how the internet screwed up poker, okay. When a guy sucks out on the river, on the internet, you cannot take the guy out in the parking lot and you cannot break his fuckin' knees." (Deuce Fairbanks)

djzcko

08-25-2007, 07:33 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

TT - AA is your bread and butter. Stop being so results oriented. Play them all agressively pre-flop, generally cbet every flop and slow down if there are overcards on the flop and your cbet is called or raised. Be very willing to lay down TT and JJ to resistance. Don't get cute with KK and AA--hit every street hard and make them pay for drawing out on you. In lower stakes, this will make you $....just be paitent and keep logging more hands...it might take 30k hands to even out.

bigspenda73

08-25-2007, 07:45 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

omg at that last hand

to clarify I was speaking about the TT hand on the montone board.

Shipshipmcgipp there bub, here has pair+FD all the time.

sejje

08-25-2007, 08:17 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Hand 1) Totally standard to the point of being mundane.

Hand 2)Bet the turn. Your line was silly. You have the best hand.

Hand 3) I'm only folding if another diamond comes out. I'd probably re-pop his raise.

Hand 4) Folding the river is the worst of your three options. It's an easy call. How big is the pot by now? I'd have raised him again on the turn, that's such a weak bet.

I think you're losing because you don't want to play big pots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Okay, I know I'm supposed to fold to aggression w/ only KK

Says who? That's terrible advice. Probably terrible enough to make a winning player a loser.

sarbox68

08-25-2007, 09:07 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejje

I think you're losing because you don't want to play big pots.

With unimproved top pair, yes, you're right. With limit, I'd run this to the river. But I've been told a couple of things... 1) OP & TPTK are not especially strong hands in $10NL FR because a majority of hands are played to SD, 2) They become progressively weaker as you move through streets , 3) The more contested a pot becomes, the more likely OP/TPTK is no good, and 4) Repeatedly getting stacked and losing w/ only TP/OP is a big leak. (Yeah, I actually read everyone's posts and try to use the info!!!

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aokrongly

aok 90/10 rule - 90% of the money you win is with top 10% MADE hands (flushes, straights, sets, etc). And 90% of the money you lose will be lost to top 10% hands.

aok contested pot rule - the more contested the pot (meaning the more betting, calling raiseing and the higher the pot gets) the more likely it is that someone has a nut or near nut hand. If it isn't you with the monster hand then you're going to fall into the 90/10 rule and lose big. (QQ overpair to the board - with a pair on the board - aint no where near the nuts). someone has a top 10% hand if the pot is contested. learn to fold your big PP's when they run into resistance and you'll save a fortune!

For every time someon bluffs you out of 20BB worth of chips, there will be 3 player who have you crushed for 1/2 a buyin or more (if you stick around and let them). In other words - you'll lose a lot more trying to smoke out the one guy out of 3 who is bluffing, than you'll win by doing it. So, give the credit for the hand and fold. It's better to fold easy than it is to fall hard.

Also am trying to actually learn to use how much people bet back at me to determine whether my OP/PP is still good. Any suggestions on what aggression to believe (to avoid getting repeatedly stacked w/ AA-TT against sets & higher) and what to push over? I guess that's what's making my head hurt!!

sejje

08-26-2007, 01:33 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

1) OP & TPTK are not especially strong hands in $10NL FR because a majority of hands are played to SD

I think that makes them stronger. Basically those guys are showing down any pair on that board with 2 hearts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

, 2) They become progressively weaker as you move through streets

Well sure, that's only logical. Are you using that for an excuse to stop betting on later streets?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

, 3) The more contested a pot becomes, the more likely OP/TPTK is no good

Fair enough, but I'm not folding overpairs heads up at that limit without super-strong reads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

4) Repeatedly getting stacked and losing w/ only TP/OP is a big leak. (Yeah, I actually read everyone's posts and try to use the info!!!

)

Repeatedly putting the money in with TPTK and overpairs while ahead is the biggest moneymaker in hold 'em. Especially heads up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

That stuff is tougher. You need to try and put your opponent on a hand instead of asking "is he beating me?" Because different modes of aggression mean totally different things in different opponents, this isn't something that can really be answered. I just watch out for check/minraised flops, that's the line a set usually takes for most styles of play.

Overall though, here's what I have to say. I've been a winning SSNL player since December '04. I beat .05/.10 NL at absolute for 12BB/100 for something like 150k hands. I'm pretty sure I've played the lowest limits longer than any other poster on these boards for various reasons, but most people moved up long ago. They're playing 200NL 200BB deep and they still don't fold many overpairs, but they come across many situations where it's right. Here, at 10NL, it's not right.

I DO NOT fold overpairs on drawy boards like hand 1 and hand 2. I also DO NOT fold sets until/unless the board is like four hearts or TJQKx. I also DO NOT fold for absolutely tiny, almost invisible .25 bets in pots laying 10x or so. I'd probably call with high card there, and you mucked better than 2nd pair? I think it's atrocious to raise preflop, raise the flop, and not call that river.

...Take it or leave it.

sarbox68

08-26-2007, 01:46 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Thx Sejje... I'll take it.

sejje

08-26-2007, 01:51 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

With unimproved top pair, yes, you're right.

Also, do you think an "improved" top pair is better for you very often?

A common for instance is Hero has AK, board KT2, turn K. Now are you sticking it in? What are you beating that you weren't beating before?

sejje

08-26-2007, 01:54 AM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Thx Sejje... I'll take it.

FWIW, I've been through those spells with AA and KK being my biggest losers over long stretches. One night I had KK six times when someone else had AA, and throw in (I think it was) 3 set under set confrontations the same night (and it was my 1st or 2nd night after I had jumped up a limit, too!)

I think you need to keep sticking the money in until you get to .25/.50 AT LEAST, and then you can think about now and then folding overpairs in small pots against nits.

Jack Sawyer

08-26-2007, 02:04 AM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Old School

Posts: 2,535

Jack Sawyer will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

omg at that last hand

To clarify, I'm talkin' about the QQ hand.
Seriously Sarbox, given those odds, you have to at least call.

My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...

Quote:

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sarbox68

08-26-2007, 02:39 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

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Jack - Yeah... I'm a freakin moron with that hand. It was more a f-ck it, I always lose with QQ and now here's a g-dd@man K on the board kinda fold. The odds are of course idiotic.... and so am i some times...

sarbox68

08-26-2007, 02:44 AM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sejje

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

With unimproved top pair, yes, you're right.

Also, do you think an "improved" top pair is better for you very often?

I understand. My thinking is even tighter than your example tho'. My "improved" TP/OP would be improving to a set or a straight/flush draw so I've got more outs than I did the street before. For example, in Hand#4, if the 9 had been a club, I would have prolly raised the turn by $1 (I think this qualifies as a semi-bluff??). But anyway, sorry if I have the wrong vernacular, but I think u get my drift.

And thanks for the level set on the short-term win-rate for these. One bad session I can deal with... three back to back with specifically big PPs cracked (or uncomfortably pushed) and I get jiggy... Thx again for all the great input!

Ash256

08-26-2007, 04:23 AM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: UK

Posts: 1,760

I think the last hand is pure Limit showing through..

From a limit perspective (albeit a very inexperienced one) it seems reasonably rational, but from an NL perspective (reasonably experienced) it's like WTTTTFFFFFFFFFFFFF NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO.

You're getting like 12:1 on your money there. He has a 10 or less MUCH more often than that.

Listen to my music

Jack Sawyer

08-26-2007, 06:28 AM

#18 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Old School

Posts: 2,535

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Remember, don't always assume he has a K because he called the pf raise or whatever. AQ, AJ, JJ, AT, Ax all love calling pf here too.

My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...

Quote:

VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.

Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI

sarbox68

08-26-2007, 05:05 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Got it. The thing that also f-d with my gourd on this one was the min bet line. He calls my 5x PFR. Then he min bets OOP the flop and calls my subsequent 5x R. And THEN min bets out the turn again. Followed by the basically min bet on the River.What's the best way to read that? I figured a weak hand (again, TP...) but really was mostly going WTF??... got confused, and folded....

sejje

08-26-2007, 11:56 PM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

You see a few hands minbetting into the PFR
1) A draw. They're hoping you won't raise.
2) Some players might minbet TP with a very weak kicker.
3) Very seldom, but often enough to mention, I see someone minbetting to try and induce a raise with something strong. Like I say, very seldom.

I guess various other hands will do it, but they're basically all weak. Middle pair or some pocket pair they want to showdown cheap when overs are out.

I love raising the flop minbet. I probably raise the turn, depending, but I don't like when they call the flop and minbet the turn again. On the river, I usually just call because I don't want to reopen the betting. However, you can figure you're almost never going to be three-bet bluffed there, and so a raise is also a good play. Depending on the player, you may fold a trash Kx. If you raise and he three-bets, it's an insta-fold for obvious reasons.

My read, FWIW, in that hand with the villain is MP or better, and probably half of the range is top pair. But it's not even approaching close enough to find a fold.

Chopper

08-27-2007, 02:07 AM

#21 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

You're getting like 12:1 on your money there. He has a 10 or less MUCH more often than that.

from a limit perspective, you MUST call here, too. your river odds are too great, plus you get the information you need for later for one BB.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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