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| Fnord |
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Opponent is 34/27 over ~20 hands and appears to be the table action. He's very loose and aggressive. Figure his button raise is at least 40% of his hands. BB is unknown but hasn't really drawn attention to himself. $1/$2 No Limit Holdem PokerStars 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($457.55) UTG+1 ($145.50) CO ($129.15) BTN ($146.00) Hero ($201.65) BB ($306.05) Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB   3 folds, BTN raises to $6, Hero ??? |
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| Ragnar4 |
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In the spirit of the limit forum. Hero flat calls. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Praetorianoctem |
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As I have said before in other posts, I am a rookie, trying to improve my game. but I will stick my neck out there with a comment from an unknown and admittedly novice player. So actually I am asking you a question... looking at the hand as you have it posted , looking at a post sized raise from the button with a nodescript player in the bb to act behind me it, would i be correct to make the call and let the flop determine future action? Im thinking a raise here is a waste of money since AKs is still only a nce loking handful of paint untill you hit with it. Or would it be proper to put in the re-pop here in order to possibly drop the bb from the hand , and gain a bit more info on the buttons holdings? |
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Spartan Curse : "May you live FOREVER"
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| bigspenda73 |
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| spoonitnow |
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| I raise to $25ish. Nice SPR going on. | |||
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| Fnord |
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Some lines to consider: Flat to hit a flop: I don't like this because it keeps the SPR high (over 10 or so, bad for TPTK OOP) and the bulk of the money we're going to pick up post-flop is when he tries to rep our hand or some other sillyness before hands are clearly defined. Also, it plays right into his strategy of opening the button loose because if we're flatting strong hands he'll get a flop if if doesn't get the blinds. Flat intending to check/raise most flops: Fun line against TAgg-bots, however I think this guy is too erratic to do this since there is a good chance he'll peel the c/r light and put us to a difficult second barrel decision. Also, I think he's calling down a lot of pair hands against that line. Raise to shove: Raising to like $50 and shoving any flop is a really fun line, but I don't think he's that stupid. Try it sometime in a live game though. However, if he was under $80ish deep, I would run a line like this. Other Raises: I really like a raise here because it gets the SPR down, sees if he's folding his button opens to raises and for immediate value. Since this hand is only around 75bb deep, $20 gives us 2 potish bets behind and gets the job done. I know some people like to raise more, but I really like to make slightly smaller raises so I can bluff a wider range for value and it gives me options. In this case I'm certainly felting my hand if he 4-bets me. Probably a fist-pump but I'm rarely excited about shipping it in with AK pre-flop, it's just one of those things you have to do sometimes. Raising more than around $20 will get him off of more of his dominated hands and I don't think it gives us a more favorable SPR. Also, if the BB does anything but fold it's time to think about hitting the breaks or even laying down. Against some other folks though I'd have to shove over a cold 4-bet. |
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| revolvingiris |
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| I like the raise to 20$ and then re-evaluate on the flop... The only way I would see calling here is to check raise the flop if you hit...My question what has his flop play to bets been? Is he likely to call draws incorrectly? | |||
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| bjsaust |
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| I probably raise to about $22, but with his stack size a little less wont hurt. Raise is for value obviously. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| bigspenda73 |
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I love how this thread is a perfect example of a spot beginners play so poorly yet it has like 5 responses. PEOPLE HE'S NOT DOING THIS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. |
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| Fnord |
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$1/$2 No Limit Holdem PokerStars 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($457.55) UTG+1 ($145.50) CO ($129.15) BTN ($146.00) Hero ($201.65) BB ($306.05) Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB 3 folds, BTN raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, BTN calls $14 Flop:    ($42, 2 players)How much are we betting? |
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| OhBollocks |
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| I bet $30-$32 here, always. No need for more on nice, dry flop. No need for less because my C-bets are 3/4 pot or more, missed or hit | |||
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| settecba |
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| cardsman1992 |
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$30 is a nice round number IMO. I would really consider $24 PF too...FWIW.... |
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!! End date: 31aug2009 Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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| Fnord |
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| Any thoughts on how our flop bet size impacts the size of the pot on the turn? | |||
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| Praetorianoctem |
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| am i correct to put in a pot sized bet on the flop, after our preflop raise? Or should it be 1/2 to 3/4 pot size? | |||
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Spartan Curse : "May you live FOREVER"
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| Palantine |
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IMO, making it 40 on the flop is better because making it 30 leaves almost a pot sized bet behind for the turn, while if we bet 40 villain has about 2/3 pot behind. I don't know, I just don't like the idea of villain having a psb behind and being out of position. It seems like having to lead for a psb sucks and checking doesn't seem right either. Edit: In the second paragraph, I mean on the turn. |
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| Miffed22001 |
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30-35 on flop leaves PSB behind to shove turn |
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| Wndllll |
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A bet of approx $30 will build the pot to ~$102 if villain calls, leaving him with ~$96 left. If he calls he's gonna be facing the rest of his stack going in on the turn. If he folds, we're happy to take the pot here. If he reraises - well that's the only situation where we make a decision. I guess the alternative is a 2/3PSB of $28 building a pot of $98 and leaving villain with exactly $98 himself. I'm very much a beginner but tend to favour 2/3PSB as a nice c-bet size for value so looking forward to seeing what you guys recommend. |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Hah I bet precisely $0 against this guy | |||
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| bigspenda73 |
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| if I do bet it's like $20 at the most | |||
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| cardsman1992 |
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(And it answers Fnord's ? as well...although properly answered it would be it commits us on turn, but I don't mind that against most of this guy's range.)[/b] |
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!! End date: 31aug2009 Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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| Wndllll |
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@ Spenda Is that a decision based on winning his stack, on his lag image, both or what? Seems betting $0 is hoping he'll bet at us which I keep reading is NOT the way to play, while betting $20 feels like it's out of c-betting range? |
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| Squeaky_Midget1 |
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| bigspenda73 |
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Pretty self-explanatory if you just sit and think about my line. I should note I play goofy at 6max, I enjoy taking lines the cookie-cutter TAGG rarely sees and it tends to put people in spots they are uncomfortable in. I also really think there is merit in being able to check a flop OOP against this guy with out giving up on the pot. |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Oh and for everyone who will yell at me for not merging my cbetting range here I can just say that I am not all concerned about balance against a 75bb stack who I'll never see again. | |||
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| Erpel |
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Couple random thoughts (no conclusions). The thing about dry flops is that they're not dangerous - should we bet when it's not dangerous? It's probably either a way ahead / way behind situation with us being way ahead and there are a lot of second best hands the opponent can improve to that will pay us off later. Also the opponent is an aggro-donk. It's not unlikely we can merely check to him and let him take himself to value town. On the flop we have a sweet SPR. He has $126 behind and the pot is $42. For people new to planning bets around commitment consider this: If you bet pot now, it'll be 3 times pot on the next street - and then you bet another 3 times pot and have gotten everything in on two streets. A simple 'reality check' rule of thumb is to take the stack behind, divide it by 4, check if it's below the current pot - if it is you CAN get all in on two bets if you fire out pot sized bets. The smaller it is, the easier it is to get all-in. In the present case we have exactly 3 times the pot behind, which can be bet in many ways - one pot sized bet and one 2/3 pot sized bet for example - but preferably probably something in between. If we bet $32 we'll have $94 behind and build a pot of $106 - this could be enough to get a shove called on the turn. Often bets on earlier streets are called more with curiousity - also they are smaller amounts and carry implied odds. Both these suggest that we could maybe go as high as $36 for a $114 pot and $90 behind which is even more callable when we shove. Counter to that is received wisdom that wet flops take big bets and dry flops take small bets. This bet sizing hint is just one of course, where bet sizing around stack sizes and commitment decisions is another, and arguably a more important one. I think to come up with a good play here (extracting value) we probably have to consider what our opponents range is. He opened the button small (wide range), then called a small/standard 3bet which considerably narrows his range. He's in position, so he may have done this with a number of speculative hands, expecting us to play premiums. He could be sitting on a premium himself, or something like a T9s. He could have a pocket pair between TT and QQ, but he almost certainly does not have KQ or any other top pair hand that will stack off easily except if he has AK too. This suggests to me that if we bet hard on the flop with the plan to shove the turn he will likely either outright fold the flop, or fold the turn when he sees that we're shoving. On the other hand if we show weakness he might be willing to fire a steal bet off himself even if he has nothing. That's money we would not otherwise have won. Alternative plan 1) Callable bets - the slower betting plan. $20 makes a $82 pot with $106 behind. $40 on the turn makes a $162 pot with $66 behind. This might enable us to get the villain to cross the commitment threshold without registering it until it's too late - or it might put us in a position where we're putting in our biggest bets when we're already beat. Alternative plan 2) Check/call flop if he bets small, check/raise flop if he bets big. If check/call, check/call turn and if he doesn't bet just shove river. Anyway - we're still planning to commit our stack we're just thinking about how to make sure the opponent puts his stack in. Worth noting is that people who sit down and play this aggro will often just leave the table when they stack off - so balancing ranges as Splenda mentioned is probably not a key concern. It might even help us image wise if other players observe us if they think we'd actually play this way against them. If I thought some of the above in this situation I'd probably check and let the villain take himself to valuetown. |
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| Fnord |
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| Warpe |
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| Preflop is fine and I like a flop check as well as it gets the most value from worse, given reads. | |||
 
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| Fnord |
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One school of thought here is to make half size bets in spots like this. The pot is big, we're repping a very strong range and the board is pretty dry. However, it's just too tempting to get this over with in two gos. So anyway, I bet $30 and he called. What's his range? |
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| Squeaky_Midget1 |
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| I would weight it more towards smaller pairs and draws like 78/67/10J/QJ, thinking a LAGG would raise with top pair, 2 pair or, a set but not discounting them. | |||
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| OhBollocks |
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Quote:
22+,K9s+,KJo+ ?? |
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| Wndllll |
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I actually think he's less likely to raise if he has a set/ 2 pair but that's just my (very) limited experience with laggs. I can't see how you can narrow it any more than OhBollocks already has : 22+, Kxs, K9o+ I think it's unlikely he's holding out on any draws on that board but I'm here to learn so maybe I'm way out. |
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| Squeaky_Midget1 |
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Quote:
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Not that im leaving A out since this is situational, imo most of his range based on pre flop and flop action falls into B and C |
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| badgers |
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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| Fnord |
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| Fnord |
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Here's your turn airball. Can someone try to suck less at putting him on a range? It's kind of important. Once you figure out what he could have and weight it, what's our best play? $1/$2 No Limit Holdem PokerStars 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($457.55) UTG+1 ($145.50) CO ($129.15) BTN ($146.00) Hero ($201.65) BB ($306.05) Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB 3 folds, BTN raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, BTN calls $14 Flop: ($42, 2 players)Hero bets $30, BTN calls $30 Turn:  ($102, 2 players)Hero ??? |
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| Vrax |
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Villain's range after flatting flop: 55-AA, K9-AK, 98s, T9s, A9s, A5s, J9s, 45s, 56s, with most weight on top pairs, then middle and second pairs, and then bottom pairs (s00teds that hit the piece). It''s pretty retarded range, but villain is table action, so he won't release anything that is woth gamb00l for him. I love pulling stack-a-donk lines against spewtards, but here pot is too big, our hand is not that stellar and 4-5 outs to pot+Fnord's stack shouldn't be given for free. $50. |
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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| Fnord |
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Like the range, how do we maximise value against that range? Consider his reaction to: Check (or $2) $50 Shove |
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| OhBollocks |
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| I think $50 is the worst of the 3 choices. Personally I'd prob be shoving but by checking (or min betting) were giving him a chance to push us off our AQ and teach us not to Cbet when we miss the flop. | |||
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| Vrax |
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lol@ $2 bet, unless Fnord incorporated minbetting into huge pots as part of his metagame strategy and now tries to execute a setup for getting bluffraised or something. But still, it sucks, it's not like 10ish SPR and enough room for potsized stack-a-donk check-raise. $50>AI>c/AI $50 will get called by 5 outers more often and it'll commit him to call river even when he misses. Shove may fold out his 5-outers, but it's still fine, we don't mind taking it down vs live outs. Checking is worst of the options, this is not spot to go loltricky. With some monster like top set (assuming only PSB behind) , checking may be not that bad but here (TPTK) it'd be blunder. |
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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| bigspenda73 |
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$30 should do the trick or $2 |
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| badgers |
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| I like $30 | |||
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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| bigspenda73 |
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| zomg the suspense is killing me | |||
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| Fnord |
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I checked to rep a failed c-bet. Kx might bet for value/protection since he knows he's pot-stuck anyway. 9x might bet to get me off of QQ-TT. But probably should check. His floats should bet because that's why he floated them. Hands that beat me I'm stacking off to anyway. Where Bigspenda set a Small Game Trap on the flop by checking, I think my line is a very nice Bear Trap. |
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| Ragnar4 |
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| So 3/4 the pot isn't an option? | |||
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Fnord |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| I forget who it was (I think nutsinho) that said it like a month ago but something along the lines of "fish pyschologically hate to fold for the same bet-size on consecutive streets" | |||
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| Fnord |
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| I don't like to fold against an unknown or fish doing that because it's usually something like middle pair or top pair weak kicker trying to both control the pot size and get value. Hence, they can't stand much heat. | |||
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| Fnord |
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Results: He shoved with JT, I fist-pump-called. I think this hand does a great job illustrating pot size manipulation, when inducing is better than betting into an aggressive opponent and setting non-obvious traps. |
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