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martindcx1e
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11-05-2006, 06:40 PM
Post subject: Picking Off River Bluffs
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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I know this can have a lot to do with reads, but I'm wondering if anyone has noticed this trend...Say you are pfr and HU to the flop OOP with something like TPTK. Action goes b/c, b/c, river completes no obvious draws and you still have TPTK. You check, villain bets pot. You call and villain shows air or something like bottom pair. Seems to me that this river bet is more likely to be a bluff than a better hand. In my experience great hands either value bet or overbet, and bluffs are either ridiculous minbets or psb's. Am I crazy here or what? What do you think?
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melinda27
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11-05-2006, 07:09 PM
Post subject: Re: Picking Off River Bluffs
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#2 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I know this can have a lot to do with reads, but I'm wondering if anyone has noticed this trend...Say you are pfr and HU to the flop OOP with something like TPTK. Action goes b/c, b/c, river completes no obvious draws and you still have TPTK. You check, villain bets pot. You call and villain shows air or something like bottom pair. Seems to me that this river bet is more likely to be a bluff than a better hand. In my experience great hands either value bet or overbet, and bluffs are either ridiculous minbets or psb's. Am I crazy here or what? What do you think?
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I notice this alot too, I get myself in trouble sometimes because I blocking bet my TPTK hands on the river so when I get raised by air I fold alot, probably too often. On the river of your average type pot will be like a 40 dollar blocking bet into a 110ish pot when a 200ish raise comes over the top I usually fold even though I probably shouldnt. Because thats the exact play I make on my busted draws, so i know what it is, i just have that weakness in my game at the moment. 
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Yeah, it's usually called 'inducing a bluff' and I use it very often against donks. Since the river bricked, even aggro-donks would fold missed draw when faced with 3rd barrel, so you check and give them opportunity to attempt a steal. From the other side you keep pot smaller in case he's not bluffing and has you beaten. Also, side effect will be that people will notice what you're capable of, so they won't be too much trigger-happy to push you off your hand on scary rivers. This is probably one the best ways to play TPTK and similar vulnerable hands against overaggressive ones.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sheetah
Yeah, it's usually called 'inducing a bluff' and I use it very often against donks. Since the river bricked, even aggro-donks would fold missed draw when faced with 3rd barrel, so you check and give them opportunity to attempt a steal. From the other side you keep pot smaller in case he's not bluffing and has you beaten. Also, side effect will be that people will notice what you're capable of, so they won't be too much trigger-happy to push you off your hand on scary rivers. This is probably one the best ways to play TPTK and similar vulnerable hands against overaggressive ones.
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I'm mainly just wondering if you've noticed a trend in river bet sizes. I'm not really asking about the play of bet/bet/check-call.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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martindcx1e
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11-05-2006, 09:13 PM
Post subject: Re: Picking Off River Bluffs
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
I notice this alot too, I get myself in trouble sometimes because I blocking bet my TPTK hands on the river so when I get raised by air I fold alot, probably too often. On the river of your average type pot will be like a 40 dollar blocking bet into a 110ish pot when a 200ish raise comes over the top I usually fold even though I probably shouldnt. Because thats the exact play I make on my busted draws, so i know what it is, i just have that weakness in my game at the moment. |
I'm not talking about blocking bets. I'm talking about river bet sizes when you bet/bet/check.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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DonkDonk
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 54
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@ 50nl it seems like every time I have tptk and check the river from out of position, the person that called me down will bet pot almost always with a very strong hand. I tend to do this also, because it's reverse pyschology; donkey thinks "he wouldn't bet the pot after I checked to him w/a good hand, he'd try to get paid off".
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The flop, turn and river can change everything. It is important to remain objective and remember that the overall goal is to win, not win this specific hand
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DonkDonk
@ 50nl it seems like every time I have tptk and check the river from out of position, the person that called me down will bet pot almost always with a very strong hand. I tend to do this also, because it's reverse pyschology; donkey thinks "he wouldn't bet the pot after I checked to him w/a good hand, he'd try to get paid off".
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thank you donk for actually answering me 
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I'm mainly just wondering if you've noticed a trend in river bet sizes. I'm not really asking about the play of bet/bet/check-call.
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Depends on the game/player. I've seen a wide range of bet sizes from people making absurd river bets when checked to. Inducing auto-bets out of people is a pretty regular part of my online game these days.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I'm mainly just wondering if you've noticed a trend in river bet sizes. I'm not really asking about the play of bet/bet/check-call.
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Depends on the game/player. I've seen a wide range of bet sizes from people making absurd river bets when checked to. Inducing auto-bets out of people is a pretty regular part of my online game these days. |
got a group of these bluff-inducing hands to share? i think they'd be handy.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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yeah you'd assume opponent is drawing, if no raise by turn..
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sheetah
Yeah, it's usually called 'inducing a bluff' and I use it very often against donks. Since the river bricked, even aggro-donks would fold missed draw when faced with 3rd barrel, so you check and give them opportunity to attempt a steal. From the other side you keep pot smaller in case he's not bluffing and has you beaten. Also, side effect will be that people will notice what you're capable of, so they won't be too much trigger-happy to push you off your hand on scary rivers. This is probably one the best ways to play TPTK and similar vulnerable hands against overaggressive ones.
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I'm mainly just wondering if you've noticed a trend in river bet sizes. I'm not really asking about the play of bet/bet/check-call. |
I guess it's pot size then. Only idiot will try to minbet and expect you to fold and calling is pretty easy anyways. From the other side I'm more scared of 1/3 pot, 1/2 pot and alike, i.e. ones that you might call with decent hand, but not big enough to scare you. But just like Fnord said: it's all opponent dependant.
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bbqsquirrel
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I'm mainly just wondering if you've noticed a trend in river bet sizes. I'm not really asking about the play of bet/bet/check-call.
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Depends on the game/player. I've seen a wide range of bet sizes from people making absurd river bets when checked to. Inducing auto-bets out of people is a pretty regular part of my online game these days. |
got a group of these bluff-inducing hands to share? i think they'd be handy. |
Here's one. Villain is an absolute donk. Maybe I'm one too, but at least I won the hand:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?578445
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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lol. yes, at least you won.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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I've just started paying attention to "river bluffs". Man whoever started this post- props. I just went through a hand- prf raiser c-bets pretty light... I call with med. pp with position to see if he's screwing with the rest of us. Top card (10) pairs up on turn, and he leads out another bland bet, not too small, nor scary at all. I call. I think to myself, if this guy has shlt, he will prob hit the river. He pots the river, i think then call (his betting is strange makes no sense). I win the pot with an underpair, 77. I laugh, scoop it up.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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lol good to hear slik
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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