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Perfect example of bet sizing gone wrong and making it to easy!

  
 
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HarleyGuy13
Old 09-09-2010, 06:31 PM     Post subject: Perfect example of bet sizing gone wrong and making it to easy! #1 (permalink)  
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 So I'm posting this just as an example of why bets matter, pot odds etc.

So I had been sitting at this table for 84 hands at this point. Ome Joey who is seated to my right in the SB hasn't really done much to take note of. He's running 39 vp$ip/16 pfr. Ubettermukk is 32/15 and Villman22 isn't much different really he's 28/17.


$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ubettermukk ($7.16)
UTG+1 mfkill ($1.38)
CO vilman33 ($4.81)
BTN Hero ($11.75)
SB Ome Joey ($2.07)
BB 7th_floor ($5.40)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is BTN
ubettermukk calls $0.05, 1 fold, vilman33 raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, Ome Joey calls $0.13, 1 fold, ubettermukk calls $0.10

I come along with since it looks like there are going to be a few in and I figure what the hell if I hit I just may get paid off. I do put Ubettermukk and vilman33 on a fairly tight ranges {22+,AK+ etc.} With this I figure if I just happen to hit the nut flush it could be profitable.

Flop: ($0.65, 4 players)
Ome Joey checks, ubettermukk checks, vilman33 checks, Hero checks

Well not what I'm hoping for and since the K&Q hit ranges all day I'll take a look at the turn for free since nobody bet out.

Turn: ($0.65, 4 players)

No this ain't to bad at all let's just see what happens. Again this is falling within ranges and I might just end up with the nuts here!

Ome Joey bets $0.10, 1 fold, vilman33 calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

When I see that bet my Ome Joey I'm thinking "Holly shit he's giving me 6:1 SWEEEET! Oh but wait it gets better vilman33 calls and now I get even better odds....I like you guys!

River: ($0.95, 3 players)
The Poker Gods have spoken. Now are we going to get some money in there?
Ome Joey bets $0.25, vilman33 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.55, Ome Joey goes all-in $1.82, vilman33 folds, Hero calls $0.27

I chuckle at the 26% bet by Ome Joey, praying for a raise by vilman33 but he only calls. So I use table ninja and wasn't paying attention when I raise, I assumed I was putting him all in so that was a mistake. But wait he helps me out!

Final Pot: $4.84
Ome Joey shows a flush, King high

Hero shows a flush, Ace high


Hero wins $4.60 (net +$2.53)

Ome Joey lost $2.07
ubettermukk lost $0.15
vilman33 lost $0.50


You would not believe the shit Ome Joey started flinging my way. Which by the way I loved...well for the first few minutes then I got fucking tired of it. He kept it up telling me what a dumbass I was etc. Finally I told him if I was such a dumbass I would ship him $10 instantly if he could tell me what was wrong with the hand and who actaully fucked it up. Well he continued his childish bullshit for a LONG TIME.

Moral of the story is we have to make sure we're not Ome Joeys. Had he made a bigger bet on the turn maybe things would have been different, well maybe not but I hope you get the meaning here!
"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

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HarleyGuy13
Old 09-09-2010, 06:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Another quick after thought. Just to show you how YOUR table imagine don't mean shit at the micro's I was running 15/11 and he never for a moment thought he could be beat!
"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

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Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
 
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philly and the phanatics
Old 09-09-2010, 06:49 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13 View Post
Moral of the story is we have to make sure we're not Ome Joeys. Had he bet on the Flop at all maybe things would have been different.
fyp
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Sasquach991
Old 09-09-2010, 07:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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If river was what would you have done if Joey had minbet again?
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...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
 
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celtic123
Old 09-09-2010, 07:08 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 nice post HarleyG.

Perfect example of why we should bet while ahead, Ome Joey should have lead out the flop, thats where he was ahead , giving no free cards.
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daven
Old 09-09-2010, 08:58 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 cool result, and cool on the turn bet-sizing ridicu-donk-ness. Although he was buying himself amazing odds for his combo-draw

also, filter in HEM and see how you're doing when you call ep/mp opens with A2-ATs
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Tasha
Old 09-13-2010, 06:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I'm curious to know what you all would have done had you been Ome Joey. After all, he was looking at a nearly nut flush draw himself but at the same time didn't want to deny himself pot odds. His small bet on the Turn is enough to be worth something if both his opponents call but not too large to scare them off. Perhaps his mistake was calling the preflop raise because in the end his position is what brought him down. Or am I looking at it wrong?
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celtic123
Old 09-13-2010, 06:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 HI , he was runnign at 39 vp$ip/16 pfr , he flat calls way too much, .

on the flop Ome Joey had the best hand , he could have bet out here , a near PSB , then it would have been a mistake for Harleyguy to call .
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zom
Old 09-13-2010, 10:17 PM #9 (permalink)  
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So much wrong with this hand, but anyway, yea a butchered hand nonetheless. Betting 1/6 pot EVER is almost always terrible unless you have super solid reads that you can induce a bluff or some other expert play, and you better not have some crap hand that needs protection like Joey here if you ever do it.
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Johnny Cashout
Old 09-13-2010, 10:35 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 yeah he definitely screwed up that hand. Completely his fault for betting so weak and not leading out with another cbet on the flop after hitting TP. If ace of diamonds came on river i might fold considering it isnt heads up and their ranges definitely include higher kicker, two pair, or a straight. Dont think my weak ace would hold up
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oskar
Old 09-13-2010, 11:11 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Whether he can cbet the flop for value heavily depends on you guys 3-betting AK pre or not. It's definitely not terrible to check it. On the turn he's not betting for value or trying to deny someone the odds to draw. - he's blockbetting to make his own mega draw and doesn't want to get raised off it.
His real mistake here imo is not realizing that once the hand goes to the turn, his pair of kings becomes a decent value hand and he blocks or dominates all draws. He should just go ahead and pot it.

River is just obviously terrible.
The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
 
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rpm
Old 09-14-2010, 03:58 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13 View Post
. Finally I told him if I was such a dumbass I would ship him $10 instantly if he could tell me what was wrong with the hand and who actaully fucked it up.
this is the only place where you went wrong (with perhaps the exception of flatting pre, it may be profitable depending on how many players are likely to see the flop and how bad they are). imo don't ever discuss the play of hands/strategy in the chat. it's neutral EV at best, -EV at worst. anything that encourages bad players to think more than they already do about poker strategy is -EV for those who are already engaged in the study of the game, right? good example of bad betsizing strategy though. nh gg gl ty etc etc
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Tasha
Old 09-14-2010, 10:54 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar View Post
Whether he can cbet the flop for value heavily depends on you guys 3-betting AK pre or not. It's definitely not terrible to check it. On the turn he's not betting for value or trying to deny someone the odds to draw. - he's blockbetting to make his own mega draw and doesn't want to get raised off it.
His real mistake here imo is not realizing that once the hand goes to the turn, his pair of kings becomes a decent value hand and he blocks or dominates all draws. He should just go ahead and pot it.

River is just obviously terrible.
Very interesting. Perhaps he was trying to play both hands at the same time; a blocking bet to make his flush with his pair of kings to fall back on if it didn't work out.
What do you think of his playing KTs from the SB when it has already been raised?
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markalius7
Old 09-14-2010, 04:20 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 i have seen many people play like this with hands such 56 clubs.indeed he didnt played well and this is the reason of his result
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Hawk
Old 09-14-2010, 05:01 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Villian was not the PFR, so he couldn't have cbet the flop. He could have donked, but checking that flop is not anything noteworthy. His only blatant mistakes were his bet sizing, both on the turn and the river.
 
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HarleyGuy13
Old 09-14-2010, 07:26 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpm View Post
this is the only place where you went wrong (with perhaps the exception of flatting pre, it may be profitable depending on how many players are likely to see the flop and how bad they are). imo don't ever discuss the play of hands/strategy in the chat. it's neutral EV at best, -EV at worst. anything that encourages bad players to think more than they already do about poker strategy is -EV for those who are already engaged in the study of the game, right? good example of bad betsizing strategy though. nh gg gl ty etc etc
Such valid points rpm! I typically try to just ignore most if not all the chat anymore. As much as I had to admit it I let this guy get under my skin!
"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

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rpm
Old 09-15-2010, 12:55 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 we've all done it. it's that ego thing we have that wants to prove them wrong, shut them up, and show them that we actually play way better than they do. ego doesn't readily convert to poker EV though unfortunately.
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supa
Old 09-15-2010, 01:57 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 ^&^^ We're all better off if we get this through our heads. With these guys it's hard to keep quiet so if you have to say something then use it to your advantage and maximize his tilt.
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Tasha
Old 09-15-2010, 11:23 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by supahaole View Post
^&^^ We're all better off if we get this through our heads. With these guys it's hard to keep quiet so if you have to say something then use it to your advantage and maximize his tilt.
Yes, very much agree with this. Do everything you can to work up the steam.
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Johnny Cashout
Old 09-16-2010, 10:03 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Yes, very much agree with this. Do everything you can to work up the steam.
^^^ This and also conversely, do everything you can to encourage him to keep up his bad playing.

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celtic123
Old 09-16-2010, 12:06 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 Na, forget all this chat thingie. just turn it off.

Play the hands.
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Da GOAT
Old 09-16-2010, 02:02 PM #22 (permalink)  
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fold preflop. id 3bet it if pfr is iso'ing limper.

u are putting opps on too tight a range preflop.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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Da GOAT
Old 09-16-2010, 02:03 PM #23 (permalink)  
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also talkin in chat is -EV
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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