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Patience is a virtue

  
 
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celebbonus
Old 02-18-2006, 06:38 AM     Post subject: Patience is a virtue #1 (permalink)  

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Face it, online poker can be boring if you stay patient and wait for good starting cards. But, in the end, you'll be happier if you don't push that call button before the time is right.

Before learning my particular stratagy, I played lousy hands and wondered why I had to keep depositing my hard earned money into Neteller. I was consistently loosing my bank roll and I didn't know why. I played with what I thought were good starting hands, but I continued to lose.

Then I found a rare book that erased my past play and transformed me into a consistently winning poker player. The book taught me to play only certain cards in certain positions. Very simple you might think, but it wasn't. In fact, it was the hardest thing I've ever had to learn in poker.

Not the stratagy, because the stratagy can be mastered by a fourth grader. It was the patience and learning to wait for the perfect cards at the perfect time.

Most players learn to play online poker now days from watching it on TV. But, ring games are very different than tournament play, and the stratagy I use is only for ring games. A majority of new players online today are influenced by what they see on ESPN, etc. By playing patiently, combined with playing the right cards in the right positions, you can literally win over and over and over again.

I play at only one online site and make about $1,000-$1,500 each week playing $1-2 NL holdem. It takes a bit more time, but the wins are consistent and you know you're going to win big in the long run.

Good Luck,

Kenny
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dan
Old 02-18-2006, 07:10 AM #2 (permalink)  
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i used to have little patience, so i started multitabling...it helped a lot and now i have all the patience in the world.
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BankItDrew
Old 02-18-2006, 07:21 AM     Post subject: Re: Patience is a virtue #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celebbonus
the stratagy can be mastered by a fourth grader. It was the patience and learning to wait for the perfect cards at the perfect time.
Pre-flop play can be mastered by a 2nd grader. It's the strategy post-flop where it becomes difficult. So much more needs to be taken into consideration post-flop compared to pre-flop.


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Fnord
Old 02-18-2006, 07:53 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Gamble Gamble Gamble Gamble Gamble Gamble...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($117.25)
CO ($38.50)
Fnord ($102.05)
SB ($123.60)
BB ($29.15)
UTG ($167.90)
UTG+1 ($20.20)
MP1 ($189.35)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 5, T.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 3 folds, Fnord calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) A, 3, 7 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $1, Fnord raises to $5, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $11

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $11.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($99)
UTG ($30.15)
MP ($39)
CO ($30.35)
Fnord ($148.75)
SB ($50)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 7, 5.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 4, J, 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: ($5) 8 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Fnord bets $3, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: $8

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $8.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 ($89)
Fnord ($112.35)
CO ($66.20)
Button ($94.50)
SB ($38)
BB ($140.15)
UTG ($19)

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with K, 7.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord calls $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) K, 9, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $3, Fnord calls $3, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($14) 9 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Fnord bets $15, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $29

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $29.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Lukie
Old 02-18-2006, 11:03 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Celebbonus,

Nice post and welcome to FTR. Congrats on your success, and I feel much of what your wrote applies to many of the poor online players.

Also, there's one thing I wanted to pick out from your post.

Quote:
By playing patiently, combined with playing the right cards in the right positions, you can literally win over and over and over again.
I think this is a pretty dangerous attitude to have, because simply playing tight, while I feel that it's often the correct way to play, does by no means guarantee you to be a winning player, especially if you don't develop solid post-flop skills.

Also, I've played with Fnord before several times and can vouch that he is a very solid post-flop player. However, I'd take his advice with a grain of salt just because loosening up and playing hands such as he posted can get players (particularly new ones) into a lot of trouble.

Quote:
I played lousy hands and wondered why I had to keep depositing my hard earned money into Neteller. I was consistently loosing my bank roll and I didn't know why. I played with what I thought were good starting hands, but I continued to lose.
This is something everyone should read as it gives a lot of insight into how a poor player would be viewing a situation like say, calling a PFR with KQo.

Also, out of curiousity, what book did you read on the subject?
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celebbonus
Old 02-19-2006, 04:29 PM     Post subject: The Book I Use #6 (permalink)  

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Mastering No-Limit Hold'em

Amazon Link-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188...lance&n=283155
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bigred
Old 02-19-2006, 08:56 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Fnord, questions

Hand 1, if you're going to play anything on the button why not raise? I would usually raise a hand like this with 2 or fewer limpers because I have position. then it's a beautiful flop that you can rep the ace giving you the pot or inducing preflop callers to continue to be calling stations if they hit the A. Free card on turn, no one expects the hit flush, it's beautiful.

hand 2) Why not raise?

Only argument I've considered is keeping in limpers for implied odds, but I'd much rather take down small pots and establish an aggressive image to get paid off later when my (referring to prev hand) 5Ts turns the flush and A7 from BB tried to slowplay me.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 02-19-2006, 09:05 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I've never read Fox's book, but you should read Cloutier and Ciaffone. Both have great books on on big bet games.

Obv, the NL section in Supersystem is great, but I think it can encourage make a lot of new players to throw money away until you master in-depth situational decision-making, depending on where you are coming from.

The following site as reviews on many great books:
http://www.jetcafe.org/~npc/reviews/gambling/
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Fnord
Old 02-19-2006, 09:24 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Hand 1, if you're going to play anything on the button why not raise?
Unless you're against really stupid/weak opponents the raise + c-bet line will only get so much goodwill and I already push that quite a bit in other hands. I really don't like getting into regularly big pot chip spewing contests with weak hands. I can also abuse the calling gap more aware players have in an un-raised pot.

When you don't create the expectation of a c-bet, other hands are easier to read IMHO and I can throw out smaller money bets exposing myself to smaller FtoP mistakes in these dinky little pots. Best case I get caught bluffing a few times.

I've been working on mixing in some Phil Hellmuth style play into my game to give my opponents some different looks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigred
Old 02-19-2006, 09:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 That's an interesting point, considering the calling gap in an unraised pot. While I agree with your first point about big pot chip spewing contests, I think there's a lot to be said about image. I play shorthanded ring so I like to make raising on the button a regular thing when folded to me. 5Ts would fit into this button raising category. While I'll admit I can run into a few checkraises on the flop when they expect a continuation bet, that's a great situation for the 5Ts on the flop you had. More value in the pot when most CR's will still give you odds to call on your draw.
More importantly though, raising 5Ts is more of a setup when you get AA or other premium hands on the button. If one is so inclined as to be able to control pot sizes relatviely well then I think the value of constantly raising exceeds the costs of a few continuation bets lost to a hefty CR. It's also hard to calculate the added benefit from other hands against a frustrated op who is sick of losing his BB . Ie. you flop a set from BB and while your constant button raising does not directly affect this situation in any way, an op to your left may already be agitated with you and ready to committ with a much wider range of hands.
I realize you already understand my previous points so my question is geared at whether you believe the costs of raises and lost cont bets exceed the value of image and potentially more hands paid off.?



What do you mean when you're referring to a phil helmuth style of play? I usually consider him to be tight-passive but I'm not confident in that assertion.
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Fnord
Old 02-19-2006, 09:45 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
What do you mean when you're referring to a phil helmuth style of play? I usually consider him to be tight-passive but I'm not confident in that assertion.
He's certainly not tight!

I raise a lot of hands on the button too. I just also limp some too, particularly when the ATM machines enter the pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigred
Old 02-19-2006, 09:47 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
He's certainly not tight!
Could I get a little explanation of what he is then? I didn't think I knew how he usually played.
LOL OPERATIONS
 
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Warpe
Old 02-19-2006, 09:48 PM     Post subject: Re: Patience is a virtue #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celebbonus
I play at only one online site and make about $1,000-$1,500 each week playing $1-2 NL holdem. It takes a bit more time, but the wins are consistent and you know you're going to win big in the long run.

Good Luck,

Kenny

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Fnord
Old 02-19-2006, 09:48 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Opponent has been seen calling position raises and c-bets, then attacking when the aggressor gives up.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($53.90)
MP3 ($98.50)
CO ($132.65)
Fnord ($98)
SB ($115)
BB ($86.05)
UTG ($103.15)
UTG+1 ($111.70)
MP1 ($80.75)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 9, 8.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, 3 folds, Fnord calls $1, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($3.50) A, 7, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets $3, BB folds, MP1 calls $3.

Turn: ($9.50) 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets $6, MP1 raises to $12, Fnord raises to $25, MP1 calls $13.

River: ($59.50) J (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets $52, MP1 calls $51.75 (All-In).

Final Pot: $163.25

Results in white below:
MP1 has 6h Ad (two pair, aces and sixes).
Fnord has 9d 8h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Fnord wins $163.25.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 02-19-2006, 09:54 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Could I get a little explanation of what he is then? I didn't think I knew how he usually played.
Play lots of hands in small pots against bad/exploitable opponents and use people/hand reading skills to beat the crap out of them post-flop. Also, by keeping the pot small he can laydown when his opponent thinks he has a strong hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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jmontis
Old 02-20-2006, 06:10 AM #16 (permalink)  
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what Fnord just said is like 70% of beating the crap out of any NL game you get in. The rest is knowing odds and how to play hands and position.

in high enough stakes against the right opps, your position alone can be a "premium hand"
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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Renton
Old 02-20-2006, 06:45 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
i used to have little patience, so i started multitabling...it helped a lot and now i have all the patience in the world.
yep, hard to get bored when you are running 4+ tables
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:35 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:44 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
Fnord what do these hands histories have to do with the original post and its theme
That you don't have to nut camp.... You can play marginal hands in position in small pots and control the pot and maximise value with that position.
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Fnord
Old 02-20-2006, 12:13 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
Fnord what do these hands histories have to do with the original post and its theme
When bad players enter the pot, stop finding reasons to fold pre-flop and start gambling with them. At worst it's easy advertising for the sake of the players that are paying attention. However, you're probably getting the best of it.

Camping the top 5% of hands against the bottom 10% or so of players as high as the 100-200NL level is like using laser guided weapons to go squirrel hunting. They are going to buy in (short) and 90% of the time walk away broke. The more hands you're in with them, the better chance you have of taking a big piece of their money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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johnny_fish
Old 02-20-2006, 04:10 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Camping the top 5% of hands against the bottom 10% or so of players as high as the 100-200NL level is like using laser guided weapons to go squirrel hunting.


You assume some postflop skill though..
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bigred
Old 02-20-2006, 06:28 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Quote:
Camping the top 5% of hands against the bottom 10% or so of players as high as the 100-200NL level is like using laser guided weapons to go squirrel hunting.


You assume some postflop skill though..
you have to learn postflop skills at some point.
LOL OPERATIONS
 
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Vrax
Old 02-20-2006, 08:06 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Isn't "Postflop skills" definiton too wide? Playing well postflop (or at least decent) is mandatory for EVERY player, wherether he is loose or tight.

"Loosening up requires good postflop skill", "that player has tremendous postflop skills thet's why he plays 8-3 offsuit"...WTF..

What are those mysterious "postflop skills"? What's the difference between "postflop skills" and "solid poker"?

Putting money when ahead or pot is for sale, getting away from the hand when way behind and opponents have too strong hand to be bluffed...isn't it a nutshell of postflop skills?

Or:

- exploiting tendencies, also knowledge of own betting patterns e.g "bet flop check turn with Ace high BUT bet flop, big bet on turn with strong made hand, bet flop and wimpy bet on turn with marginal hand" - it's leak...mixing up like "sometimes I should bet flop check turn with AA" if you face a guy that likes floating should be quite in order.

- utilizing position but not abusing it "I have 8-3 but i have POSITION, RAISE those limpers, oh shit they call I guess I have to pot that raggy flop WTF that passive @#$@$ was overlimping QQ??? what a moron"

- knowing betting patterns of others, i.e. who leads with made hands, who raises draws, who folds the flop in doesnt make the hand, who calls the flop "just one time" and folds the turn etc...

- pegging loose passive fishies, LAGS, maniacs,solid players, nits, floaters - and playing accordingly

- knowing pot odds

- having some grasp on pot equity (Fnord, I start to see the light, TY)

- having some tricks in arsenal and knowing when to apply them, not just "oh well I flopped the draw I like semibluffing so I will bet, maybe on turn I will take it down, oh shit he he pushed! Ok, fold but at least I'm aggressive and aggression is g00t"

Quote:
you have to learn postflop skills at some point.
The sooner the better

I'd like to know how others FTR'ers define "postflop skills"...?
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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bigred
Old 02-20-2006, 10:03 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 Post Flop Skills - The skills and knowdlege utitlized after the first three community cards have been dealt face up.
LOL OPERATIONS
 
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Fnord
Old 02-20-2006, 10:59 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Post Flop Skills - The skills and knowdlege utitlized after the first three community cards have been dealt face up.
...and Ace King is reduced to just a pretty good hand that whiffed horribly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigred
Old 02-20-2006, 11:49 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Post Flop Skills - The skills and knowdlege utitlized after the first three community cards have been dealt face up.
...and Ace King is reduced to just a pretty good hand that whiffed horribly.
Are you implying that my monster, AK, is simply nothing more than A high when it misses the flop? You sir, are pulling me leg.
LOL OPERATIONS
 
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Vrax
Old 02-21-2006, 12:09 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
...and Ace King is reduced to just a pretty good hand that whiffed horribly.
So, the same way as red Aces on 9sTsJs are gamb00l hand?
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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