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Passive player donks pot on river potential scare card

  
 
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Donachello
Old 02-16-2010, 01:54 AM     Post subject: Passive player donks pot on river potential scare card #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is a relative unknown, running 36/20/30Agfrq over 56 hands though this one took play after only 26. But the stats were essentially the same.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($11.52)
Hero (CO) ($5.80)
Button ($2.24)
SB ($2.03)
BB ($6.50)
UTG ($8.63)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8, 8
2 folds, Hero bets $0.20, 2 folds, BB calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.42) J, 10, J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.25, BB calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.92) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, BB calls $0.50

River: ($1.92) K (2 players)
BB bets $1.20

Total pot: $1.92

I'm a little uncertain about what he is betting here because he has been passive and folding a lot up until this point. In my mind this could easily be a slow played JT full house, then again it could also be an number of flushes that also had a SF draw. I think part of his range also includes KJ though I'm not sure how much. Ps. My turn betsizing is effing terribad.

Obviously this is never really a fold but I'm not sure about the pros and cons of raising vs. just calling. It's hard for me to determine how much of his range is trip jacks (AJ), how much is flushes, and how much is a boat.
[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?
 
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acoss3006
Old 02-16-2010, 02:48 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Looks like he is still drawing on the turn here, which makes the river bet look alot like AQ.

Do you have pokerstove?

Whack in a range, see where your at, and post.
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spoonitnow
Old 02-16-2010, 02:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 What are you looking to accomplish with the flop bet? If you say collect dead money I will invent a machine to stab people in the face over the Internet and you will be my first victim.

What's up with the turn bet size? His range is pretty strong at this point, so I'd be looking to bet closer to pot to set up a big river bet and get the most value out of my boat against his heavily-filled with flushes and Jx range.

Decide what range (your best guess) calls a shove. If you have more than 50% equity against that range, then go-go-gadget value shove. If not, then calling is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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BooG690
Old 02-16-2010, 03:16 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I was basically going to write everything Spoon wrote...but he already wrote it. However, I will try to write it in a nicer tone.

At first, I thought a check was the best play on the flop. However, there are arguments for a bet. With the Js and Ts out on the flop, you get a lot of calls from flush and straight draws. I don't hate the flop bet...but I think I may have checked there. As Spoon said, if you were looking to take the pot down on the flop, shame on you.

As for the turn, what is he calling the turn with? There are flushes, straights, trips, and huge draws in his range. There are also full houses in his range that would simply be coolers. Either way, you can probably extract more value than a half pot-size bet. You can bet a larger number here and expect a call (especially with the type of players you encounter in the microstakes). Don't be afraid to bet your big hands. Players that are afraid to bet their big hands find themselves stuck on the river with a small pot and end up overbetting the pot to try and extract value. BET YOUR HAND.

As for the river donk, instead of taking everybody's word that "it's a shove." Instead, stove a range of hands that villain may shove with. You'll find a lot of flushes and straights in this range. A lot of players will call a shove with a flush/straight here. SHOVE!

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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spoonitnow
Old 02-16-2010, 04:14 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
At first, I thought a check was the best play on the flop. However, there are arguments for a bet. With the Js and Ts out on the flop, you get a lot of calls from flush and straight draws.
Against KQo we're 43%. Against As3s we're 50%. Against 98o we're 51%. Against As9s we're 44%. We're getting value out of what again? =P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-16-2010, 04:22 AM #6 (permalink)  
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BooG690
Old 02-16-2010, 06:04 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Yeah, I pretty much got owned.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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Donachello
Old 02-16-2010, 03:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 @ spoon. Flop bet is essentially pure bluff because he has been folding to every cbet and most PFR I have made up until this point. Maybe that is the wrong move *shrug* at the time it seemed like "oh I didn't flop anything and this guy folds a ton and has only really played TP hands. Bet"
[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?
 
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spoonitnow
Old 02-16-2010, 03:49 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donachello
@ spoon. Flop bet is essentially pure bluff because he has been folding to every cbet and most PFR I have made up until this point. Maybe that is the wrong move *shrug* at the time it seemed like "oh I didn't flop anything and this guy folds a ton and has only really played TP hands. Bet"
Right, and that's why I'm saying you should check. You're never getting him to fold anything that he should continue with (ie make a mistake) and you have quite a bit of showdown value. There are tons of other better hands you can c-bet with here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Donachello
Old 02-16-2010, 10:49 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Point taken. I wasn't happy with this hand, hence my posting it. Thanks for the feedback.
[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?
 
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hhsale
Old 02-18-2010, 09:55 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Nice
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