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Overshoved when I hit my flush

  
 
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tunah
Old 01-23-2009, 02:27 PM     Post subject: Overshoved when I hit my flush #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
tunah
Couldn't work this one out in time, I think I made the right decision but certainly not for the right reasons.

No stats on villain (just 10 hands)

Quote:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (9 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.82)
MP3 ($5.76)
MP2 ($5.22)
Hero (BB) ($5.10)
Button ($1.94)
SB ($5)
UTG+1 ($5.21)
CO ($5)
MP1 ($5.47)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 3
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.04, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.04, MP3 calls $0.04, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.18) A, J, 10 (4 players)
Hero bets $0.09, 1 fold, MP2 raises $0.22, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.13

Turn: ($0.62) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.59, Hero calls $0.59

River: ($1.80) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.85, MP2 raises to $4.37 (All-In), Hero ?
The way it played out I was thinking he had a weak ace (so we were flipping on the flop, and something like 70-30 getting 2-1 to call the turn, with some implied odds I hope).

Then I hit on the river and didn't think he'd bet into me, so I bet and he overbet pushed. If I'd called him down the whole way and then bet here, that has to look exactly like a flush.
If I'm bluffing, he only has to call, so either he thinks I've got a flush and he's bluffing, or he has Kxs (I haven't seen people play flush draws that aggressively at this level), or he has A8. Is that enough to fold?
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cremson687
Old 01-23-2009, 03:03 PM #2 (permalink)  

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Posts: 28
cremson687
I think him having A8 is far fetched because he raised you on the flop. With no reads or stats is hard to put him on that wide of a range. What hands would he raise you on the flop? 2pair, pair w/flush draw or a pair w/straight draw, Strong Ace which would give him a Gutshot. Is it possible he limped JJ's or 10's tho probably unlikly. Without knowing his range and hitting your hand when your really only crushed by a few hands it tough for me to lay down that hand even tho it is for most of my stack.
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tunah
Old 01-23-2009, 03:22 PM #3 (permalink)  

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tunah
Because so many seem to be playing fit-or-fold, I've been betting most flops with air in position and donking some so I quite often get minraised by TP vs anyone paying attention But since this guy is new he doesn't know that, so you might be right about A8 being unlikely.

AT or JT are possibilities for sure, I'd have to assume he raises AJ+ AA JJ TT.
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d0zer
Old 01-23-2009, 03:23 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I have trouble putting the villain on an A8,J8,T8 or a flush given the flop action.

The flop aggression really looks like he's got KQ,AT,AJ,AQ,AK,JT, TT,JJ. The last two are often limped at lower levels, and as such, AA is even a possibility. A read on the villain would really help here. Some maniacs would shove 2pr on this river, some even AQ. A straight / boat is probably more likely from a somewhat more reasonable villain, but this IS the microstakes we're talking about here.

3 AA
1 JJ
3 TT
16 KQ (one we're behind)

That's enough to convince me to call. THrow in 2prs like AT in the mix and we're ahead of even more. Given that this is the microstakes, I think I look him up ya.
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AFchung
Old 01-23-2009, 09:11 PM #5 (permalink)  
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AFchung
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can any of the experienced players comment on getting this in on the flop? with a pair, straight draw, and flush draw i think we have a ton of equity to just get it in here
http://afchung.blogspot.com/
 
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DoanDiggy
Old 01-23-2009, 10:30 PM #6 (permalink)  
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DoanDiggy
With a draw like this, I'm almost never calling on the flop, I'm usually raising. The exception is if I have good reason to believe that villain already has more than a pair and I'm getting my money in as less than a flip. That might be a mistake, though.

I can't fold the river here either. Just yesterday I had this beauty of a hand. I paused here for a minute before 3betting to consider what the hell he would be raising with and if I really expected him to show up with AT very often and I decided I didn't. I really expected to be splitting with another T if I was called, but I figured I'd put the chips in and give him a chance to make a bad decision (to either fold a T or call with a bad hand). Fortunately for me he was just an idiot who decided to slowplay and then couldn't lay down his hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($3)
Button ($4.55)
SB ($10.25)
Hero (BB) ($16.20)
UTG ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 10
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.25) Q, K, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

Turn: ($0.25) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($0.25) J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP raises to $0.90, Hero raises to $3, MP calls $2 (All-In)

Total pot: $6.05 | Rake: $0.30

Results:
Hero had 5, 10 (straight, King high).
MP mucked 9, Q (two pair, Queens and nines).
Outcome: Hero won $5.75


At low stakes, players really seem to get attached to a 2 pair or better hand, raising when they should call or calling when they should fold. In your hand, his shove looks to me like an idiot with a straight or two pair just making a horrible raise. "This idiot's bluffing! No way they have me beat! I'm all-in!" They don't realize that there is no point in going all-in when only better hands will be calling. They just like to go all-in with their strong hands regardless of what else is on the board.

We called on the turn with the idea that implied odds would make up for the slightly loose call. Hell yeah implied odds! Get those chips!
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tunah
Old 01-23-2009, 11:24 PM #7 (permalink)  

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Posts: 44
tunah
Thanks guys. Makes sense that with 11ish outs I should be reraising the flop here. I feel discomfort getting all the money in as a flip, but I have to remind myself that fold equity + pot odds makes it profitable.

As played I called, I'm glad I didn't take the wrong lesson from him showing A5o
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DoanDiggy
Old 01-23-2009, 11:43 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Posts: 536
DoanDiggy
Ahh... so I guess he was trying to get a stronger ace to fold with an overshove? Well... ok then. GG him.

I was just noticing on the hand I posted that he was a poster. That kind of makes it even funnier. You show up and post, your garbage makes two pair, and then you slowplay and end up losing your whole stack on the very first hand you play .
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tunah
Old 01-24-2009, 12:52 AM #9 (permalink)  

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tunah
At 5NL with no history he could easily be never folding an ace PF and never folding a pair of aces postflop.

That is funny... although reminds me of sitting down, first hand is AK in the BB, flop is AKx, button has AA
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