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overplayed NFD oop? 5NL

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miracleriver

07-09-2008, 04:04 AM Post subject: overplayed NFD oop? 5NL

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 173

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($11.38)
Hero ($5.45)
BB ($8.65)
UTG ($5.95)
UTG+1 ($8.74)
MP1 ($6.42)
MP2 ($9.93)
CO ($6.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, T

.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.12, MP1 calls $0.12, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.41) J

, 6

, 4

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.4, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP1 raises to $2.35, Hero raises to $5.33, UTG+1 calls $4.93, MP1 raises to $6.3, UTG+1 calls $0.97.

Turn: ($18.34) Q

(3 players)

River: ($18.34) 2

(3 players)

Final Pot: $18.34

Did I overplay this hand?

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pankfish

07-09-2008, 04:13 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Yeah, once MP1 raises you don't have any fold equity and your ace probably isn't an out. c/r is a better line here than donk/3bet.

<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs

aka_red

07-09-2008, 09:42 AM

#3 (permalink)

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fold pf

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

LuckySlevin

07-09-2008, 10:07 AM Post subject: terms

#4 (permalink)

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would someone explain what the codes mean please.

I assume BB is big blind, but what do the other acronymns mean, and what is Hero. Thanks!

Hero ($5.45)
BB ($8.65)
UTG ($5.95)
UTG+1 ($8.74)
MP1 ($6.42)
MP2 ($9.93)
CO ($6.50

celtic123

07-09-2008, 10:23 AM Post subject: Re: terms

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Hi,

Hero is always YOU
BB big blind
UTG = under the gun, the first person to act after the BB, probably a bad place to be in , because people act after you.

UTG + 1 = self explanitory.
MP1 and MP2 nor CO I do not know

LuckySlevin

07-09-2008, 11:29 AM Post subject: overplayed?

#6 (permalink)

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Now I can make a bit more sense of the codes I can see how you must have been tempted with that raise.

But yes I too think you overplayed the hand.

I've been in a similiar situation myself and know how tempting it can be but bear in mind you have a 1/4 chance of hitting it on the turn, and a 1/4 chance on the river.

**** Out of interest what is the actual probabality of drawing a flush with two cards remaining?

miracleriver

07-09-2008, 12:40 PM Post subject: Re: overplayed?

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

**** Out of interest what is the actual probabality of drawing a flush with two cards remaining?

~35% or ~1.86:1

miracleriver

07-09-2008, 12:58 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pankfish

Yeah, once MP1 raises you don't have any fold equity and your ace probably isn't an out. c/r is a better line here than donk/3bet.

That actually makes a lot of sense. If I take the c/r line and get reraise all-in, it becomes a simple pot odds problem, right? In that case, should I count any of the remaining aces as out?

Robb

07-09-2008, 01:27 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by miracleriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by pankfish

Yeah, once MP1 raises you don't have any fold equity and your ace probably isn't an out. c/r is a better line here than donk/3bet.

That actually makes a lot of sense. If I take the c/r line and get reraise all-in, it becomes a simple pot odds problem, right? In that case, should I count any of the remaining aces as out?

One way of dealing with "questionable" outs is to discount them, in this case maybe count one additional out for the 3 aces.

I don't see much wrong in this hand, especially if you had a read on BB. I often fold this preflop, but ATs holds up well multiway. You do have to worry about being dominated if the flush outs don't hit.

The flop action is crazy - typical 5nl action, and without reads its difficult to know where you're at. Someone could have middle pair no kicker or a set. You probably had less fold equity than you thought, like pankfish said. But just check/calling is tough in a 3-way pot since you don't know how many raises will end up getting fired.

All in all, it's a decent line to take. One very good thing about this hand is that you didn't get results oriented. You obviously won the hand, but you're still thinking "was this the right way to play it?" That's hard to do sometimes for noobies. So nice job there.

I think these difficulties on the flop are indicative of what redzilla was saying. If you flat call with mediocre hands from the blinds, you're going to face some tough situations postflop. All in all, you had outs to the nuts. Laying it down postflop would have been a much bigger mistake than any of the small ones you made.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

GatorJH

07-09-2008, 01:41 PM Post subject: Re: terms

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

MP = Mid Position
CO = Cutoff, which is the seat just to the right of the BU (button)

Also, I agree with Robb that there aren't any HUGE mistakes in this hand. Yes, the PF (pre-flop) call is on the marginal side because you are OOP (Out of Position), but as long as you don't get hung up on betting a Ten high flop with no draws you are ok.

Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.

pankfish

07-10-2008, 01:56 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

All in all, you had outs to the nuts. Laying it down postflop would have been a much bigger mistake than any of the small ones you made.

I disagree with this. If you have no fold equity and you aren't receiving correct odds to draw to a flush you are just burning money by continuing.

<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs

bigred

07-10-2008, 02:54 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pankfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

All in all, you had outs to the nuts. Laying it down postflop would have been a much bigger mistake than any of the small ones you made.

I disagree with this. If you have no fold equity and you aren't receiving correct odds to draw to a flush you are just burning money by continuing.

Yeah, I also disagree.

LOL OPERATIONS

pankfish

07-10-2008, 04:45 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: On Tony Romo's nuts

Posts: 385

Quote:

Originally Posted by miracleriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by pankfish

Yeah, once MP1 raises you don't have any fold equity and your ace probably isn't an out. c/r is a better line here than donk/3bet.

That actually makes a lot of sense. If I take the c/r line and get reraise all-in, it becomes a simple pot odds problem, right? In that case, should I count any of the remaining aces as out?

Here is what you do. His range is pretty narrow right? Open poker stove, go to player one and enter your hand. Go to preflop player two and enter his most likely range, click JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AJo, AJs, 66, 44, 64os, 64s. You have 36.243% equity against his range.

If you don't have pokerstove download it here, www.pokerstove.com , it's free.

edit: oh yeah, enter the flop and click evaluate

<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs

ponyboy

07-10-2008, 10:20 AM

#14 (permalink)

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You got lucky and I'm assuming that you won the hand with the nut flush. I would have folded that preflop as most would suggest here but once the flop hits yikes. Good bet size initially, but then reraising a reraise with about a 35% chance of hitting your card is obviously not smart.

However, thinking about this a different way - if that spade DOES hit, he wins a HUGE pot, therefore the option for calling becomes that much greater. Calling of course, not raising. Once you get reraised odds are they are both going to push and you can get stacked quite easily, especially against two opponents.

Fnord

07-10-2008, 10:44 AM

#15 (permalink)

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This hand is soooo standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LuckySlevin

07-10-2008, 10:53 AM Post subject: acronyms

#16 (permalink)

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what does mp1, mp2 and co mean thanks

sandstorm

07-10-2008, 11:05 AM Post subject: Re: acronyms

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

what does mp1, mp2 and co mean thanks

Middle position 1 and 2
Cutoff (to the right of the button)

Check this out (and all the other stickies in the beginner forum!)
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...an-t13407.html

>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs

miracleriver

07-10-2008, 01:16 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

if that spade DOES hit, he wins a HUGE pot, therefore the option for calling becomes that much greater. Calling of course, not raising.

To make calling +EV, UTG+1 MUST stay in the hand on the flop and I MUST stack at least one of them when I hit the turn. A lot of MUSTs for an EVness that is not that great.

Robb

07-10-2008, 01:21 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by pankfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

All in all, you had outs to the nuts. Laying it down postflop would have been a much bigger mistake than any of the small ones you made.

I disagree with this. If you have no fold equity and you aren't receiving correct odds to draw to a flush you are just burning money by continuing.

Yeah, I also disagree.

Zero fold equity is not a problem if you're not behind. This is 5nl, and they get it all in with 2nd pair and TPNK all the time. He's got 9 flush outs and (probably) the 3 aces are outs. At least 40% equity in a 3-way pot, only slightly less if someone has a set.

How can hero lay this down?

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

ponyboy

07-10-2008, 08:44 PM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 379

Quote:

Originally Posted by miracleriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

if that spade DOES hit, he wins a HUGE pot, therefore the option for calling becomes that much greater. Calling of course, not raising.

To make calling +EV, UTG+1 MUST stay in the hand on the flop and I MUST stack at least one of them when I hit the turn. A lot of MUSTs for an EVness that is not that great.

I agree. I never would have played that hand preflop personally.

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