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Overpair VS the 70bb stacker-berate my spew-monkey shove!

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-23-2009, 03:57 AM     Post subject: Overpair VS the 70bb stacker-berate my spew-monkey shove! #1 (permalink)  
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 His stats are 21/7/7 ATS of 25. I've been running the table over a bit, raising alot in position and 3-betting a couple MP openers that I have some HUD history on. I've also folded to a couple raises postflop already this session to a couple 100bb stacked players. There's something about 70bb's though that just makes be believe this player is garbage...

Question is, given the pot odds here, is it pretty standard to stack here or should I just chuck it to the raise. I'd probably fold top pair here easily, but with an overpair having a bit more equity I felt weak just folding. I think alot of AQ/KQ/mayyybe QJ type hands may do this...but is this too optimistic? Generally when I'm raised on dry boards like this I'm usually beat from past experience.
I think if I was going to continue I should at least have just check/called the rest of his chips rather than shoving back, but I'm pondering whether or not its a leak to be pushing big pairs hard into these type of players. (I think alot of the time my re-raise might fold out the weak hands I want continuing).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($6.40)
BB ($7.30)
UTG ($14.80)
MP1 ($10)
MP2 ($10.30)
CO ($6.90)
Hero (Button) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.45, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.60) 6, 8, Q (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.15, SB raises to $2.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.60, SB calls $3.60 (All-In)

Turn: ($13.40) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($13.40) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $13.40 | Rake: $0.65

The first step to improving for me is admitting I'm an aggro-donk against anyone who has less than 100bb's.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Fnord
Old 02-23-2009, 09:01 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I stack off here every time.

Looks like a set mine though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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dev
Old 02-23-2009, 09:08 AM #3 (permalink)  
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He's fairly agro post-flop. The only way you can get away here is if it's a super passive player over a big sample playing back at you.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:43 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I'm not folding
SPR is below 4
My range here is TPGK
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Revolver123
Old 02-23-2009, 10:48 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I guarantee he turned up a set or 2 pair. I've learned to respect a lot of huge shoves at micros because 80% of the time, you are beat. These guys play any two cards and shove it when they catch their miracles.

However, it would be hard for me to fold this here too. AA does lose sometimes, remember.
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Illfavor
Old 02-24-2009, 01:10 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolver123
I guarantee he turned up a set or 2 pair. I've learned to respect a lot of huge shoves at micros because 80% of the time, you are beat. These guys play any two cards and shove it when they catch their miracles.

However, it would be hard for me to fold this here too. AA does lose sometimes, remember.
This is incorrect thinking IMO. We can't generalize about microstakes all-in plays on the flop with any real success. This hand is fine and everyone is stacking off here every time. KK, AQ, QT/J/K and even 97s are all very possible here.
Ich grolle nicht...
 
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animal_chin
Old 02-24-2009, 02:51 AM #7 (permalink)  
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How is this not the most standard thing ever?
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Parasurama
Old 02-24-2009, 03:28 AM #8 (permalink)  
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If you're raising a good range on the button here, it will not be profitable to set-mine against you, and you can stack off here every time.
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Illfavor
Old 02-24-2009, 03:55 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animal_chin
How is this not the most standard thing ever?
B/c he lost the hand I assume...
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-24-2009, 04:05 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animal_chin
How is this not the most standard thing ever?
Like Fnord said, it looks alot like a set mine given the line.

However given the stack size (iopq mention the SPR is below 4) I'm guessing looking him up here is standard since I don't have a read on what he would raise the flop here with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
If you're raising a good range on the button here, it will not be profitable to set-mine against you, and you can stack off here every time.
Yeah this is a typical c-betting spot for me and there's a fairly large range that I'll never be continuing with here facing a flop raise since my isolating range for the limper is fairly wide. Are you saying that even if I stack off here and am beat, this one time villain stacks me will not make up for all the small pots I pick up plus all the times he won't get paid off when he raises my c-bet?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Parasurama
Old 02-24-2009, 04:18 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
Originally Posted by animal_chin
How is this not the most standard thing ever?
Like Fnord said, it looks alot like a set mine given the line.

However given the stack size (iopq mention the SPR is below 4) I'm guessing looking him up here is standard since I don't have a read on what he would raise the flop here with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
If you're raising a good range on the button here, it will not be profitable to set-mine against you, and you can stack off here every time.
Yeah this is a typical c-betting spot for me and there's a fairly large range that I'll never be continuing with here facing a flop raise since my isolating range for the limper is fairly wide. Are you saying that even if I stack off here and am beat, this one time villain stacks me will not make up for all the small pots I pick up plus all the times he won't get paid off when he raises my c-bet?
Yes.
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bigspenda73
Old 02-24-2009, 04:21 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 funny how people never post this HH when villain has QJ

I kinda wanna make Wednesday "win day" on FTR, where you can only post HH's where you won the pot
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-24-2009, 04:50 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
funny how people never post this HH when villain has QJ

I kinda wanna make Wednesday "win day" on FTR, where you can only post HH's where you won the pot
lol do it. I know it's brutally obvious I lost this hand (no need to even say what he had) and there's probably a good amout of hands I've won where I've done something incorrect (it's just harder to notice these spots unfortunately).
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Revolver123
Old 02-24-2009, 05:06 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor

This is incorrect thinking IMO. We can't generalize about microstakes all-in plays on the flop with any real success. This hand is fine and everyone is stacking off here every time. KK, AQ, QT/J/K and even 97s are all very possible here.
It's not incorrect thinking when the same scenarios play out over and over again at these stakes. But I do believe it is incorrect thinking at 50NL and above. Do you know how many times I've been shoved on when I had AA, called, and they turn over Q7o with a 2 pair? or 33 set? People at micros shove their entire stacks on 2pair or better but I've noticed they do it rarely on a top pair; they usually just station that down to the showdown. (At least on stars)

PS - KK unlikely because no 3 bet preflop. AQ/KQ/QJ likely but I can't imagine a shove call on that board based on PF action which gives away that the hero has QQ+ It's very easy to tell that the villain has 66 or 88. Or probably Q6 or Q8 lol.
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DoanDiggy
Old 02-24-2009, 05:25 AM #15 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73
Old 02-24-2009, 05:44 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoanDiggy
NL is for pessimists.
fyp

limit is for optimists
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DoanDiggy
Old 02-24-2009, 05:56 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoanDiggy
NL is for pessimists.
fyp

limit is for optimists
For some reason this reminded me of a quote in one of your GS videos where you were really frustrated because, "They always have it at this level. In what world is a pair of jacks a huge dog to a 3bet shove preflop?" Or something like that. But then you sucked out against kings .

In my original post I was referring to longterm.... If you're pessimistic as a poker player and remember all the times you lose, you're not going to have a very enjoyable poker-playing career.
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-24-2009, 03:52 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolver123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor

This is incorrect thinking IMO. We can't generalize about microstakes all-in plays on the flop with any real success. This hand is fine and everyone is stacking off here every time. KK, AQ, QT/J/K and even 97s are all very possible here.
It's not incorrect thinking when the same scenarios play out over and over again at these stakes. But I do believe it is incorrect thinking at 50NL and above. Do you know how many times I've been shoved on when I had AA, called, and they turn over Q7o with a 2 pair? or 33 set? People at micros shove their entire stacks on 2pair or better but I've noticed they do it rarely on a top pair; they usually just station that down to the showdown. (At least on stars)

PS - KK unlikely because no 3 bet preflop. AQ/KQ/QJ likely but I can't imagine a shove call on that board based on PF action which gives away that the hero has QQ+ It's very easy to tell that the villain has 66 or 88. Or probably Q6 or Q8 lol.
By PF you mean..postlflop not preflop right?
I'm on the button and there's a weak tight limper who just opened in early position (I have history on him and I know almost exactly what range he has here and how he plays it post flop) so my raising range in this spot is very wide, I just happen to have AA this time around.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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