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Overpair facing check minraise

  
 
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Hoopy
Old 06-14-2009, 04:39 PM     Post subject: Overpair facing check minraise #1 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 Been at this table 3 orbits, Villein is unknown as I was 4 tabling and not picking up too many reads (something which I really need to fix).

Preflop is standard, when he check minraises I think his range is weighted quite heavily towards stronger hands, as donks seem to love playing strong hands that way.

So options are call, shove and fold. Opinions?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($3.46)
BB ($4.51)
Hero (UTG) ($1.90)
MP ($4.62)
Button ($2.23)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, Button calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) 6, 6, 9 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, Button raises to $0.40
Hero ??????
Total pot: $0.65
 
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 06-14-2009, 04:45 PM #2 (permalink)  
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From experience, minraise on turn is much more dangerous than minraise on flop against some of these players.

I would call and see what he does on the turn. He might also just have a 9 and put you on two overcards. If turn is T+ and he doesnt bet you are probably good.
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A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
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golfguy37
Old 06-14-2009, 04:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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That shows a lot of strenth and chances are he has a six. It's hard to lay down Q's but I think that's the only choice for you here. He called from the BB so he could have just about anything... A-6, 6-7s, 5-6s. I dont think he would check-raise with a hand like 8-9 or A-9. And you should really start to read your opponents while multi-tabling, it might help you make the right decision.
 
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Old 06-14-2009, 05:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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super-standard call
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bigspenda73
Old 06-14-2009, 06:41 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 what's the turn card?
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Hoopy
Old 06-14-2009, 07:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 Hero calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.05) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.16,

Tbh b/f seemed out of the question as it leaves me committed if he shoves, and when he over bets the pot and basically puts me all in I'm thinking if I can include JJ/TT and maybe A9 in his range it should be an ok call.

Thoughts?
 
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Cougar
Old 06-15-2009, 08:05 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Agree B/F would be bad here.

Agree with the call on the flop but without some sort of "loosy-goosy", "loony-tunes" or "crazy maniac" read, I'm definitely folding after seeing that turn bet, don't see A9/K9/Q9/78 making that size of a bet.

We beat 1010/JJ and lose to pretty much everything else except air

As previously mentioned even some Stats would really help here
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nish81
Old 06-15-2009, 08:55 PM #8 (permalink)  
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the mini-raise on the flop would suggest to me that he could have a 9, or a low pp, or he could be slow playing a six, and i'd call that one. but i'd fold to the raise on the turn, because i dont think he'd make that sort of play without a trip, unless he's over-betting a gutshot?
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

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JR: mono e mono
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Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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littleogre
Old 06-15-2009, 09:54 PM #9 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Call flop check fold turn. Assigning general traits to the button he is raising a large range on the flop. So we can call. Now when he bets the turn he almost always has a 6.
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Carroters
Old 06-15-2009, 10:12 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Not folding on this flop ever, the fact that it's a multiway pot does make it a little scarier though.

Turn is a prety horrible spot, but to him your hands probably underrepped at this level. Let's have a stab at a range here even though he's unknown.

Board: 6s 6d 9c 8h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.128% 60.13% 00.00% 1508 0.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 39.872% 39.87% 00.00% 1000 0.00 { JJ-66, A9s, A6s, J9s, T9s, 98s, 76s, 65s, A9o, A6o }

I probably call down here because this is 2NL and as sir P says the min raise on the flop as supposed to the call flop, raise turn line makes me think TP and overpairs are more likely than 6s and boats.
Sucks to be oop here because we don't get a chance to value bet river when he turns his A9 face up by checking.

 
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:45 PM #11 (permalink)  
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carroters he takes that line with a nine about never
he is more likely to have KK+ than J9s here imo
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Roller
Old 06-16-2009, 12:22 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Roller has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Since the Villein is unknown it may be hard to put him on a hand.

Bet your QQ stronger PreFlop.
Eliminating hands like A6 67.

As is: Call the Flop and Fold to the bet on the Turn.

I think you had him but with out more info its hard to call.
He is representing the set and you have no sure read on him since the Villein is unknown.

So did you Fold?
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speedcake
Old 06-16-2009, 02:00 AM #13 (permalink)  
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its 2nl, any 9 is a huge part of his range imo. Flop min raise without a read is an easy call. Turn, meh. you under repped by just calling the flop and then checking turn to him. Folding here seems bad.
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oskar
Old 06-16-2009, 08:22 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 I fold the turn.

You do see that line as a bluff sometimes... but someone who will overbet the turn as a bluff is a lot more likely raise bigger on the flop as a bluff.

idk how capable microstakes villains are to raise A9s, 77, 88, TT, JJ for value there, and they're probably not overbetting the turn with those hands.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:54 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedcake
its 2nl, any 9 is a huge part of his range imo. Flop min raise without a read is an easy call. Turn, meh. you under repped by just calling the flop and then checking turn to him. Folding here seems bad.
not when he straight up pots the turn

they're going to bet like .40 if they have a nine because they're not sure where they're at against a possible straight or trips or overpair
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Carroters
Old 06-16-2009, 11:19 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I really disagree about AA and KK being more likely than 9x. These will be 3-bet pre flop so often that they're pretty unlikely imo. This is 2NL where from what I've heard people treat top pair as the nuts, and altough they may not be "thin value betting 3 streets" out of being a good player, they may well still want to get a lot of money in being level 0 thinkers and liking what they see. Pot control is surely not a concept familiar to too many people who play for fun with a $2 stack.

At 2NL the vast vast majority of players don't read poker forums or think about what they're doing in the slightest, so weaker hands can easily be in his range here especially given that you've given him no reason to slow down (calling a min riase on the flop doesn't scare these guys). At 25NL this line would concern me more.

 
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:22 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Carroters
I really disagree about AA and KK being more likely than 9x. These will be 3-bet pre flop so often that they're pretty unlikely imo. This is 2NL where from what I've heard people treat top pair as the nuts, and altough they may not be "thin value betting 3 streets" out of being a good player, they may well still want to get a lot of money in being level 0 thinkers and liking what they see. Pot control is surely not a concept familiar to too many people who play for fun with a $2 stack.

At 2NL the vast vast majority of players don't read poker forums or think about what they're doing in the slightest, so weaker hands can easily be in his range here especially given that you've given him no reason to slow down (calling a min riase on the flop doesn't scare these guys). At 25NL this line would concern me more.
I say it's more likely because it fits his post-flop line
a lot of people at 2NL will call AA pf and play it like the nuts on the flop
[x] minraise the flop
[x] pot the turn
[x] nuts

9x just doesn't look like the nuts to all but the worst players
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Hoopy
Old 06-16-2009, 11:34 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 Regarding stats I have a Mac so PT/HUD won't run on it. Hopefully in the future they'll bring a version out.
Also thanks for all the reply's so far they've made me think about this hand a lot more, in particular lines villeins take.
 
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:35 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by HoopyDude
Regarding stats I have a Mac so PT/HUD won't run on it. Hopefully in the future they'll bring a version out.
Also thanks for all the reply's so far they've made me think about this hand a lot more, in particular lines villeins take.
there's a hud for mac, I forgot what it's called but ask some other macfags they'll tell you
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Keith
Old 06-16-2009, 12:34 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 poker copilot ....it was discussed in one of the other threads in last few days
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Monsieur_chat
Old 06-16-2009, 12:52 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopyDude
Regarding stats I have a Mac so PT/HUD won't run on it. Hopefully in the future they'll bring a version out.
Also thanks for all the reply's so far they've made me think about this hand a lot more, in particular lines villeins take.
there's a hud for mac, I forgot what it's called but ask some other macfags they'll tell you
You're just jealous of our purdy laptops.

Hoopy, it's called Poker Copilot. I dont use it personally and at $49 (with a month long trial) I think it's a tad overpriced, but I know dranger7070 thought it was ok.

Tbh you don't really need one at 2nl, wait until you've moved up a few times and your bankroll and the level you're playing at better justify it. Also that gives them a bit more time to bring out the long awaited PT3 / HEM for mac.

Also if you have a decent machine (mine is lolbad) with Bootcamp check out the 2p2 technical forums for advice on running parallels on your computer so you can use PT3 / HEM.
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DaD01ng
Old 06-16-2009, 01:32 PM #22 (permalink)  

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this is 2NL right? Villain is unknown right?

If villain is unknown at 2NL then I'll just assume that he doesn't know a thing about poker just like 90% of 2NL players.

Yeah alright we lose a lot of the times as well, but I just can't bother to fold to an unknown at 2NL... we've shown a lot of weakness and our hand still beats some hands that the villain thinks is the nuts. I mean, it's also very possible that villain has J9 or something and just doesn't know what to do on the turn when checked to so he's just like "aite fuck this, I'm putting it in"
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nish81
Old 06-16-2009, 02:42 PM #23 (permalink)  
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It seems that without any stats or a read on the opponent, we're trying to substitute in the 'typical characteristics' of a 2NL player..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
Hoopy, it's called Poker Copilot. I dont use it personally and at $49 (with a month long trial) I think it's a tad overpriced, but I know dranger7070 thought it was ok.
I'm pretty sure there must be a way to keep the trial running for more than 30 days
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Hoopy
Old 06-16-2009, 02:50 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 Checking out quite a few HUD's atm should help in the future.

As this hand is pretty analyzed now I feel its ok to post the results. So after running my time bank right down I moved in and he called, turn was a 7, results in white.
[color=white]
He had JT which surprised me, did not think he was semi bluffing on the turn, anyway I took a note and moved on.
 
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:34 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaD01ng
this is 2NL right? Villain is unknown right?

If villain is unknown at 2NL then I'll just assume that he doesn't know a thing about poker just like 90% of 2NL players.

Yeah alright we lose a lot of the times as well, but I just can't bother to fold to an unknown at 2NL... we've shown a lot of weakness and our hand still beats some hands that the villain thinks is the nuts. I mean, it's also very possible that villain has J9 or something and just doesn't know what to do on the turn when checked to so he's just like "aite fuck this, I'm putting it in"
so despite him taking a line that's like obvious nuts, we feel the need to bluff catch?
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