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philly and the phanatics
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06-13-2010, 04:44 PM
Post subject: overpair 5nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Ok so villain is 22/5
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($2.35)
BB ($5.39)
UTG ($3.05)
UTG+1 ($5.60)
MP1 ($1.75)
MP2 ($5.21)
Hero (MP3) ($4.93)
CO ($5.04)
Button ($3.02)
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 10 , 10
4 folds, Hero bets $0.17, CO calls $0.17, 1 fold, SB calls $0.15, BB calls $0.12
Flop: ($0.68) 7, 2, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.68, CO calls $0.68, 2 folds
Turn: ($2.04) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.02, CO raises to $4.19 (All-In)
ok so i have JJ-99,77,55,22,A9s,86s,A9o in his range against which i have 33.33 % equity against. And i only need 30% for it to be a call. However my problem is, should i really keep a9 in his range? if you make it only 9 combos of a9 (as opposed to 12), my equity shrinks to 29%, making this ev- and obviously as i drop a9 combos my equity plummets.
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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What about the "fuck you" part of his range? Add more hands and Your equity will increase...you've only considered the value part of his range here. That said, I can't see a nit jamming with tptk...
I guess my action here would depend on what I'd seen him showdown with before + reads on him...How does he perceive your range?
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
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Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
What about the "fuck you" part of his range? Add more hands and Your equity will increase...you've only considered the value part of his range here. That said, I can't see a nit jamming with tptk...
I guess my action here would depend on what I'd seen him showdown with before + reads on him...How does he perceive your range?
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22/5 does not = nit. but i dont have any reads on him outside of "he likes to play suited connectors ip". My range at this time is missed broadways and overpairs, but i am not sure if someone that limps like this is paying enough attention to realize that. I dont see him jamming anything but value here really, maybe if you say he is bluffing 2% of the time, i still barely have enough equity with 9 a9's in his range.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??
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a9, jts, 9ts, 8ts, j9s, 68s, 88 all give me value here
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
a9, jts, 9ts, 8ts, j9s, 68s, 88 all give me value here
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So we b/f the entire pot for value against draws 4 handed?
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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yea you want to let them draw for free? only thing thats beating me is sets, jj , and maybe 79s. Also if one of them calls a 1/2 pot bet than the others have great odds to chase
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EasyPoker
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
22/5 does not = nit.
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I suppose not, but the fact that he raises so infreq. preflop surely must mean that if he's jamming then it won't be with any less than two pair, like...he must know what to put his money in with is what I mean.
Anyway, I don't *know* I'm just hypothesizing.
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[20:19] <Zill4> god
[20:19] <Zill4> u guys
[20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
[20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
yea you want to let them draw for free? only thing thats beating me is sets, jj , and maybe 79s. Also if one of them calls a 1/2 pot bet than the others have great odds to chase
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No I want to give them the an amount to call that they'll call often, but isn't profitable. Give us stats on how they play if you have a read thats telling you that theres a station among them. Players shouldn't often be turning their busted draws into bluffs at this level, so I don't think you have to bet more to price out bluff outs
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
I suppose not, but the fact that he raises so infreq. preflop surely must mean that if he's jamming then it won't be with any less than two pair.
Anyway, I don't *know* I'm just hypothesizing.
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looking at my pt3 he has an afq of 66 so while he is passive pre he is actually pretty agressive postflop. although in fairness i had not looked at this during the hand and should assume he is pretty passive and not doing this with less than two pair.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I don't think I'm so much looking for value in betting this spot, but more to just pick up the dead money in the center. I would scale down the sizing and do it with a large % of my range so it has to work less frequently to show profit
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
No I want to give them the an amount to call that they'll call often, but isn't profitable. Give us stats on how they play if you have a read thats telling you that theres a station among them. Players shouldn't often be turning their busted draws into bluffs at this level, so I don't think you have to bet more to price out bluff outs
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who said anything about betting more to price bluffs out?
and a psb is something they will call often but isnt profitable. however anything less, like i explained, and then i risk giving one of them good odds to call
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
who said anything about betting more to price bluffs out?
and a psb is something they will call often but isnt profitable. however anything less, like i explained, and then i risk giving one of them good odds to call
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Pretty hard to give them great odds to call on the flop.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
I don't think I'm so much looking for value in betting this spot, but more to just pick up the dead money in the center.
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Yeah and that makes absolutely no sense.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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if i bet 30c, and the other 2 call then he has to call 30 cents to win a 1.70 pot, idk what you are talking about not being able togive them good odds
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Well do we feel comfortable barreling here
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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and betting $0.50 doesn't give them good odds to draw if you don't assume they all hit the flop and are drawing to the same straights
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
and betting $0.50 doesn't give them good odds to draw if you don't assume they all hit the flop and are drawing to the same straights
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i dont assume that, but they could have a9, 88, and draws like i said ldfo
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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A9 and 88 need really good odds to draw here lol
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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what are you talking about, i have a really high cbet, if someoen with my cbet % cbet me i would call with 88 or a9 all day
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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yeah A9 is std to expect them to continue, but if they raise you flop bet what's their range? does it consist of A9 if you have a high cbet? how often are you getting bet off your hand on the flop if you have a high cbet, or are you trying to just get the money in?
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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Guys, IRC is that way ------------->
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
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we're in IRC
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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I think A9 is aiming to call down alot. Imo you have to have seen him do this before with a bad hand in order to make it a call. I didnt read the 20 posts after the OP cuz theyre lol, so if you said hes done this alot then easy call...otherwise its probably a kickthepuppy fold.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKDS
I think A9 is aiming to call down alot. Imo you have to have seen him do this before with a bad hand in order to make it a call. I didnt read the 20 posts after the OP cuz theyre lol, so if you said hes done this alot then easy call...otherwise its probably a kickthepuppy fold.
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ktpf it is then, thanks jkds
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cleanup.that
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??
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With reads and against badies its fine. I Always look to get the max from these type of players and I don't worry too much about them having me beat when they are just calling down with worse so often . Pot, pot, shove is a very viable line at the micros against certain villains even if it is thin.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($30.03)
UTG ($26.49)
MP ($25)
CO ($26.48)
Button ($53.30)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 10
3 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero bets $1.70, Button calls $1.45, 1 fold
Flop: ($3.65) 10, 4, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.10, Button calls $3.10
Turn: ($9.85) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $7.10, Button calls $7.10
River: ($24.05) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $18.13 (All-In), Button calls $18.13
Total pot: $60.31 | Rake: $3
Results:
Button had 10, Q (one pair, tens).
Hero had A, 10 (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $57.31
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You wanna die? Run on up on that black Seven forty-five.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanup.that
With reads and against badies its fine. I Always look to get the max from these type of players and I don't worry too much about them having me beat when they are just calling down with worse so often . Pot, pot, shove is a very viable line at the micros against certain villains even if it is thin.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($30.03)
UTG ($26.49)
MP ($25)
CO ($26.48)
Button ($53.30)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 10
3 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero bets $1.70, Button calls $1.45, 1 fold
Flop: ($3.65) 10 , 4 , 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.10, Button calls $3.10
Turn: ($9.85) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $7.10, Button calls $7.10
River: ($24.05) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $18.13 (All-In), Button calls $18.13
Total pot: $60.31 | Rake: $3
Results:
Button had 10 , Q (one pair, tens).
Hero had A , 10 (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $57.31 |
I'm fine with those sizes, I just don't usually bet the entire pot unless i need to to get it in by the river or it's a really wet board. 70-90% is usually as large as i value bet on the flop unless its really wet
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shallam
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 98
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I think you are beat.
If your stack was shorter I might bother trying to figure out if you win often enough to make a call worthwhile, but you have too much behind for for that to even be close. He wants your whole stack, don't give it to him.
I think you are beat about 80% of the time, your opponent will show up with overpairs, sets, two pairs, even the oddball straight. Once in a while you'll be up against hands like 99, 88, Ac9c, AcKc, 6c8c, 6c4c. It really doesn't make sense to play these hand this way. It makes total sense to play a set this way.
If I had to pick one I'd pick a set of 9s.
BTW, you made some very large bets post flop but smallish bets preflop. Why did you choose those bet sizes ?
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shallam
I think you are beat.
If your stack was shorter I might bother trying to figure out if you win often enough to make a call worthwhile, but you have too much behind for for that to even be close. He wants your whole stack, don't give it to him.
I think you are beat about 80% of the time, your opponent will show up with overpairs, sets, two pairs, even the oddball straight. Once in a while you'll be up against hands like 99, 88, Ac9c, AcKc, 6c8c, 6c4c. It really doesn't make sense to play these hand this way. It makes total sense to play a set this way.
If I had to pick one I'd pick a set of 9s.
BTW, you made some very large bets post flop but smallish bets preflop. Why did you choose those bet sizes ?
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preflop cause thats my standard raise preflop....postflop because there were so many people i wanted to a. fold out some crap hands that may hit on later streets like broadways b. price out draws, and c. get value from a9 type hands.
turn i agree i am def beat and its a fold imo.
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shallam
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 98
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Just a note on bet sizing. If you make pot sized bets as a matter of routine you quickly find that you are putting your entire stack risk very quickly. Here is a little math.
Let's say you have 15-20 BB as a result of preflop action. So you bet 15-20 on the flop, get called, making the pot 45-60. You pb the turn and now you have 135-180. You pb the river your entire 200 BB deep stack is now at risk. So that's cool if you have a set or something but just a pair ?
Contrast that to making some adjustments for the pot size. You pb the flop, 2/3p the turn and 1/2p the river. Now you are around 15 + 20 + 35 = 70, painful but not catastrophic should you lose. Also note that even primary draws (4 to 1) are getting the wrong immediate odds to chase with just a half pot bet (3 to 1).
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LAPRAS
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32
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I make it a touch less on the flop.
Turbomuck turn, bad/passive opponents rarely call flop/raise turn with <1pair.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I don't think folding is god awful, you are getting a good price though. I don't think these situations are where we make or lose money anyways.. flip a coin and move on. Personally, I always lean towards calling in these spots.. you can't win by folding.
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