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Over Check raise on the river?

  
 
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argash
Old 10-20-2009, 03:27 AM     Post subject: Over Check raise on the river? #1 (permalink)  
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Table was full of loose passives over 30ish hands with 4 players around 35-45/5-10. So I decided to open my range here UTG and hit my flush. Villain was 35/17 specifically but hadn't seen him show down yet. I got him to raise on the river as I wanted but apparently he wasn't ready to stack off even with me feigning strength on the Q high flop and weakness when the flush hit. What would have been the better bet on the river? Should I have led off? Or C/Rd to .8?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($2.41)
MP2 ($0.98)
Villian (CO) ($2.04)
Button ($1.81)
SB ($0.40)
BB ($2)
Hero (UTG) ($4.35)
UTG+1 ($0.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 9
Hero bets $0.06, 3 folds, Villian calls $0.06, Button calls $0.06, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.21) 5, 8, Q (3 players)
Hero bets $0.18, Villian calls $0.18, Button calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.75) 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets $0.28, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.28

River: ($1.31) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.63, 1 fold

Total pot: $2.11 | Rake: $0.14

Results below:
Hero didn't show A, 9 (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $1.97
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al yell
Old 10-20-2009, 03:44 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I open any suited 'A' from any position. I'd bet the turn. We have the nuts, build the pot. No need to get tricky imo.
When Push Comes To Shove
 
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clvacva
Old 10-20-2009, 06:24 AM #3 (permalink)  
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OK players to your left are loose but at Full ring isn't A9s still way too marginal?.

Oh and I bet bet then bet.

Wonder what you do when flop is Ac7h5h.
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daven
Old 10-20-2009, 06:46 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 pre-flop is marginal, but whatever. All sorts of hands can be in your range here occasionally, just make sure it's dominated by 99+/AQ+

Flop is fine but ffs bet the turn. Even 40c leaves villain less than pot behind on the river. You really want to be maximising your chances of playing for stacks in this spot

also
Quote:
Originally Posted by al yell
I open any suited 'A' from any position
this is a huge leak in full ring play
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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al yell
Old 10-20-2009, 07:26 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 i honestly didn't even realize this was FR. I was speaking as though it was 6max. My bad! Please disregard.
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bjsaust
Old 10-20-2009, 07:50 AM #6 (permalink)  
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You stopped betting on the turn...
Just playing to improve.
 
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argash
Old 10-20-2009, 04:23 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
You stopped betting on the turn...
General consensus here seems to be you all don't like me checking the turn here. My thought process was I fired at the Q high flop and he called so I had him on a lower flush draw and when it hit I was hoping he would lead into me. Not to mention I didn't want to scare him off. I felt like checking gave the best chance to get all the chips in the middle.
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celtic123
Old 10-20-2009, 04:58 PM     Post subject: Re: Over Check raise on the river? #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argash
............ What would have been the better bet on the river? Should I have led off? Or C/Rd to .8?
Good shot , you adusted to passives.

But, I think you should be building the pot before the river,dont try to be tricky.



When your ahead....get dee money in.
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bjsaust
Old 10-20-2009, 08:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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So...you put him on a made flush and didn't bet why?

Unless you're against some maniac bluff monkey, betting is usually a much better way to get chips in the middle than checking.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Stacks
Old 10-20-2009, 08:37 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argash
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
You stopped betting on the turn...
General consensus here seems to be you all don't like me checking the turn here. My thought process was I fired at the Q high flop and he called so I had him on a lower flush draw and when it hit I was hoping he would lead into me. Not to mention I didn't want to scare him off. I felt like checking gave the best chance to get all the chips in the middle.
Let me get this straight... You felt a lower flush draw was a huge portion of his flop calling range. However, when you hit the nut flush on the turn, you didn't want to bet when you believe he has a lower flush fairly often, because that would scare him off? So in essence, you think he is calling the flop with a flush draw, to fold to one bet when he hits his flush? Now that's just strange wouldn't you say?

Also, when you give up the initiative like this here, you are usually going to have a few things go against you. You will either miss value from the numerous hands bad/passive players will station you with. Passive players are just that passive. They aren't bluffing much, they aren't value betting thin, but they are calling a wide range. Why would you give up initiative with the nuts when a villain isn't betting too often, but will call like crazy? Doesn't make sense.

Another thing that could go wrong is just what happened here. You want the money in, but he doesn't want to do it for you. So either he checks back a street and you miss value from his worse hands, or he bets sizes not conducive of getting allin, and you have to check/raise or lead into him larger, which is generally a bit stronger than just bet/bet/betting. If you bet/bet/bet here, you can have the nuts, thin value bets, and bluffs (we prob wouldn't against this player, but he doesn't know that). Well if you check/raise the turn, 'you' probably never have a bluff, nor a thin value hand. You pretty much have a flush everytime. Same goes for the river, you probably aren't betting, c/c, c/shoving with a bluff, or even thin value hands. By bet/bet/betting you exploit his leak of calling too much while also keeping your perceived range wider, meaning he can call down with a wider range (if he's even thinking about that, which he isn't). And these are the reasons when we have the initiative with our strong hands, we generally just bet/bet/bet and try to size it appropriately enough to get all of the money in.
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Pelion
Old 10-20-2009, 10:00 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al yell
I open any suited 'A' from any position.
unless the players at your table are very passive and either exceptionally loose or exceptionally tight this is probably a leak.
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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bjsaust
Old 10-20-2009, 11:40 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Stacks covers the details well. Dont get me wrong, its good that you're thinking about how to maximise value, but my experience and general agreement from most players who have moved up through and out of the micros is that the best way to get value in microstakes poker is to just keep betting and raising your big hands.

I open all suited aces from all positions, I find it an easier 'balancing' range to play than SCs.
Just playing to improve.
 
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