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bunthorne
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11-13-2005, 09:08 PM
Post subject: Outplayed or played badly?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Advice please - did I play badly or was I outplayed, or both?
It's a cash game and I have been dominating the table (six handed) for some time. I am dealt AA and make my standard raise of 4 x bb. One player calls and I put him on a medium pair or a couple of high cards. The blinds fold.
Flop comes JJ2 rainbow. Caller bets twice the pot. I suspect that he hasn't got a J as he wouldn't bet so much to scare me off if he had; or, he does have a J and is making it look as if he's trying to steal. I consider raising but settle for a call. River is a Q and caller checks immediately. QJ is one of the hands I had put him on so I know that a house is possible, but he might also have two pair in which case I'm in front. I consider betting but wary (perhaps too wary) of a check-raise, I check also. River is a 4. Caller bets the pot. After consideration, I fold, giving him credit for trips at least. He doesn't show his hand.
Looking back, I feel I either gave him too much credit for fancy play or showed too much fear by not reraising on the flop or betting on the turn. On the other hand, if he did have trips or a house, I suppose I got away from the pocket AA pretty cheaply.
Any suggestions for a similar situation in future?
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drdeutsch
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 60
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I reraise on the flop and find out where I'm at.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I think you played this a bit weak. You should raise the flop, then if he pushes at you you may have reason to fold. His flop bet is so big that even a minraise is a substancial bet. Even if you only call the flop you should at least bet the turn, you need to take control of the hand. Be the one who is betting and getting information, not calling and giving it.
Dont be afraid of him having the full house either, its a rare situation and even if he did catch a house you were beat already so it doesn't give you extra reason to fold.
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mouteut
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 152
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#1 What was the style of that player(maniac? rock? )
#2 What was your image(rock? weak tight? maniac? agressive?)
#3 What image he thought of you....
#4 or even, what image he thought you thought of him.
If he was a tricky player and you had a very loose-agressive image, it could very well be a bluff. However if hes a rock who loves to overbet, then easy fold.
I would look at 20-30 hands on the hand history just to answer these questions and then make a clever decision based on that. You have 30 seconds time bank, use it.
My guess would be he wanted to steal the pot on the flop(or he could also have had some sort of pocket pair, thinking he could protect it), he then checked because he got scared you had the jack, and he then decided to bluff at it seeing your weakness.
However i lack information. What limit was it?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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How did the action go?
Based on the preflop action it seemed like the caller was behind you, and the blinds folded afterwards.
In the flop action, you gave no indication of you betting or checking, and said your opponent bet twice the pot.
Limp-call preflop?
This makes an absoltuely huge distinction in the hand...
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Checkways
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11-15-2005, 05:14 AM
Post subject: Re: Outplayed or played badly?
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#6 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 249
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My opinion: You probably folded the best hand.
Here's my question to you. What information did he give you that allowed you to put him on a medium pair or high cards? Much less QJ exactly. You raised and he called. That's it. I wish the people that call my raises only have medium pairs, QJ and nothing else.
Anyway, I'm pretty fine about the way you played the hand except the fold on the river. That's really strange to me.
You CALLED the over bet on the flop because you wanted to see if you were ahead.
You got exactly what you wanted. He showed weakness on the turn which should only reinforce that you have the best hand. Maybe he's trapping you, so you check it. Good. Because if he doesn't have the J, he'll fold here to your bet. Let him bluff the river.
Turn is a blank and all of the sudden you fold? What? What beats you here? A jack or QQ (I wouldn't put him on 22 because even the trickiest of players won't overbet the flop with a fullhouse unless you're a calling station). If you put him on a jack for overbetting the flop then why CALL it in the first place?
Very strangely played in my opinion. If he's really really tricky then he had you beat or got lucky and had QQ. Overbetting the pot headsup with a hand that you want a call with is VERY ADVANCED poker. Unless you think this guy is Johnny Chan you should have raised him or continued to let him bluff into your aces. Not fold.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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If I call the flop, I call the river.
I'd raise the flop, though. It'd take some balls to push without a jack, and I usually let balls take a pot here and there.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I wanted to just say fold on the flop, which I generally think is the right move in this situation, but there is so much missing (but very important) information here.. probably most notably being the stack sizes.
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lowBoy
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 513
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
I usually let balls take a pot here and there.
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Well said, but I would raise that flop most likely. Reads, stack sizes, and preflop action are important to this decision but at typical levels of play ($10-$100NL) I'd say you're ahead of the average opponent.
Your opp probably has 99-TT and puts you on the most likely holding of Ace&Face (especially since you've been dominating) and doesn't want to get drawn out on on the flop. He's scared that you have the J or have a high PP and are slowplaying him, so he checks the turn. You don't bet the turn after he shows weakness and he thinks his PP might be good, but wants the fold equity that a pot sized river bet could bring. As Checkways said, potting the river as a value bet is a thinking player's move done only in certain situations.
This whole hand reeks of a middle PP in the hands of an opp that is tired of your domination of the table.
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bunthorne
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Thanks for the advice, Guys. I realise I played it weak.
I've posted another and would be grateful for any advice.
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