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swiggidy
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09-26-2006, 02:35 AM
Post subject: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
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Does the size of an unknown opponents's pre-flop raise affect the way you play against them? I don't mean if it changes, but the standard raise?
I have 58 hands with this opponent who is 16/14 and the raise everytime is 8xBB.
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Laeelin
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09-26-2006, 02:39 AM
Post subject: Re: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Does the size of an unknown opponents's pre-flop raise affect the way you play against them? I don't mean if it changes, but the standard raise?
I have 58 hands with this opponent who is 16/14 and the raise everytime is 8xBB.
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Fold a lot more. 
I'd just play for sets/big pairs, and then only if both of you are deep... Your not going to get the odds with SCs...
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Nova442
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
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Of course, your implied odds are much lower so your sc/pp type hands go down in value as calling hands. Also 8x bb standard raise is severely overbetting the pot and restealing becomes a more attractive option if he's raising light himself.
I fold more preflop and 3 bet more preflop.
EDIT: The 3 betting is not so much because of his raise size as because of his PFR.
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"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of War."
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AHiltz
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If his preflop raise % is 14 he's not just raising AA/KK. You need to reraise this guy and put him in line.
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Halv
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09-26-2006, 02:13 PM
Post subject: Re: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#5 (permalink)
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pro crastinator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
I'd just play for sets/big pairs, and then only if both of you are deep... Your not going to get the odds with SCs...
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Quote:
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If his preflop raise % is 14 he's not just raising AA/KK. You need to reraise this guy and put him in line.
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Combine these, resteal with hidden hands preflop.
That being said, usually I just stay out of these guys' way and punish the weak ones instead.
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swiggidy
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09-26-2006, 04:34 PM
Post subject: Re: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#6 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
That being said, usually I just stay out of these guys' way and punish the weak ones instead.
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This was my thinking, but I knew there was a better answer. I folded AQo from the SB, otherwise I had garbage when he raised. I don't trust my post-flop skills yet.
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Halv
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09-26-2006, 04:53 PM
Post subject: Re: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#7 (permalink)
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pro crastinator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
That being said, usually I just stay out of these guys' way and punish the weak ones instead.
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This was my thinking, but I knew there was a better answer. I folded AQo from the SB, otherwise I had garbage when he raised. I don't trust my post-flop skills yet. |
One big point is that you'll want to have position on the aggro players. Don't make it a habit to play back at people OOP.
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zook
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Make sure you have position on him. If you don't, leave the table. Pay attention to implied odds, but also re-raise him with a wider range than usual... maybe 99+, AQo+, AJs+, KQs and the occasional suited connectors. If he calls, c-bet the flop. You'll scoop a lot of nice pots this way. After you've done it a couple of times, tighten your range a little b/c he'll be more likely to look you up. If he puts up any resistance post-flop you'll have to make a tough decision, but look at his WTSD% and pay attention to what he shows down to figure out if he's as loose post-flop as he is pre-flop.
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swiggidy
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09-26-2006, 05:09 PM
Post subject: Re: Opponents standard pre-flop raise is different size?
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#9 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
That being said, usually I just stay out of these guys' way and punish the weak ones instead.
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This was my thinking, but I knew there was a better answer. I folded AQo from the SB, otherwise I had garbage when he raised. I don't trust my post-flop skills yet. |
One big point is that you'll want to have position on the aggro players. Don't make it a habit to play back at people OOP. |
That's why I folded 
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LimpinAintEZ
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stay outta the way - 16/14 sounds like he's just raising all big hands - I wouldn't get involved at all - AQ is exactly the type of hand that will get you in trouble against these rocks - i would just stay away unless you have a hand that can stack him (like 3 others in pot with a pp or something - then I might gamble a bit with him)
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
stay outta the way - 16/14 sounds like he's just raising all big hands - I wouldn't get involved at all - AQ is exactly the type of hand that will get you in trouble against these rocks - i would just stay away unless you have a hand that can stack him (like 3 others in pot with a pp or something - then I might gamble a bit with him)
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Huh? Raising pre-flop 14% of the time is all big hands? Here's the top 14% according to PokerStove:
77+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo
AQo is around 6%.
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Halv
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My pfr over the last ~10k hands is just under 10% and I definitely do not raise just big hands. In position I'll raise anything if the table is right, which brings us to another point; you need to know if he is aware of position.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
stay outta the way - 16/14 sounds like he's just raising all big hands - I wouldn't get involved at all - AQ is exactly the type of hand that will get you in trouble against these rocks - i would just stay away unless you have a hand that can stack him (like 3 others in pot with a pp or something - then I might gamble a bit with him)
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AQ is ahead of probly about half of his range.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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nutsinho
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
stay outta the way - 16/14 sounds like he's just raising all big hands - I wouldn't get involved at all - AQ is exactly the type of hand that will get you in trouble against these rocks - i would just stay away unless you have a hand that can stack him (like 3 others in pot with a pp or something - then I might gamble a bit with him)
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insane?
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
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he's only playing 16% of his hands...thats tight you LAGGS
just cause he raises 95% of his hands doesn't mean he's not raising good ones - Maybe he read the hellmuth top 10 hands and raises them all - Its certainly better than limping everything....
besides, if he's raising 8x BB preflop, why do you WANT to take AQ against him? If his range is A8s+ sure, but those stats seem awful tight to me - Also, if he's raising everyhand he's in preflop, is he letting them go or is he betting them big on c-bets? Do we really want to get involved in a bunch of pots with the guy when we're holding AQ?
Unless you hit the flop huge, you need to get paid off by him or you take a small pot - If he's c-betting flops with pot sized bets we are all of a sudden getting into big pots - (with marginal hands)
Who's to say that over 58 hands he hasn't gotten good ones? I think if that is over 558 hands, we have a better idea - But it's certainly easy to get great hands over less than 60 hands -
Just seems to me we don't need to get involved with the guy -
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
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then again, i am a bit biased with AQ - I hate AQ - I play it pretty standard, but i don't win many big pots with it....Unless im betting TPTK into a donk opponent, im just getting involved with a marg. hand in a pot thats bigger than i want it to be....thats not my idea of good NL poker - i want to play big pot poker and i don't find that AQ lets me do that....
and nutsinho - why don't you offer something constructive? What the hell does a 1 word answer/question attain? Mr. Heart attack - come with something for me to respond....
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
My pfr over the last ~10k hands is just under 10% and I definitely do not raise just big hands. In position I'll raise anything if the table is right, which brings us to another point; you need to know if he is aware of position.
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do you have a standard raise of 8x BB with A8suited though? you are talking over 10k hands too - we only have 58 hands on him....
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AHiltz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
just cause he raises 95% of his hands doesn't mean he's not raising good ones -
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Pokertracker does not rate pfr based on the vp$ip number. If out of 10 hands you see 3 flops and raise once, your vp$ip is 30 and your pfr is 10, not 33.
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swiggidy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AHiltz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
just cause he raises 95% of his hands doesn't mean he's not raising good ones -
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Pokertracker does not rate pfr based on the vp$ip number. If out of 10 hands you see 3 flops and raise once, your vp$ip is 30 and your pfr is 10, not 33. |
I think limpin was just making up a number
Out of 100 hands he raises 14 and calls with 2 more.
14/16 = 87.5%
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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too many people only add a bb for each limper when they have a big pp. Too many also raise to 5bbs instead of their normal 4 with TT/JJ/QQ UTG and run scared when you reraise preflop and follow up on the flop.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
too many people only add a bb for each limper when they have a big pp. Too many also raise to 5bbs instead of their normal 4 with TT/JJ/QQ UTG and run scared when you reraise preflop and follow up on the flop.
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isn't that just good TAG poker though? I used to over-raise preflop with big hands to only win blinds - I find its better to raise enough thta you define your hand, but you still want 1 or 2 callers - if i'm early i'll raise it 4-5x, and if there are limpers i'll add a few big blinds, but when i've got Q's or J's (both of which are raise/reraise the stupid min-raiser hands for me) then im betting when i've got the overpair and i'm careful when the A or K hits....I've lost plenty of pots thinking i'm good with QQ to a set or something weird - I used to play them scared and overbet and try to just get the pot to me as quickly as possible - Now i'm trying to max them out more by getting a caller or 2 and a good flop....
lately i've been just calling some decent preflop raises even when I think it's a position raise with my QQ or JJ hands (despite 6 people being in- lol) just in order to win a huge pot if i hit a set...but im just experimenting with that against bad players....
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swiggidy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
too many people only add a bb for each limper when they have a big pp.
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you're saying they don't add a bb when they don't have a pp?
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Too many also raise to 5bbs instead of their normal 4 with TT/JJ/QQ UTG and run scared when you reraise preflop and follow up on the flop.
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OK, that's not what I'm talking about though. If bets vary I generally get why. This was 8x regardless of a limper or two or zero, regardless of position.
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Fnord
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As people raise bigger, it becomes less correct to call and more correct to re-raise or fold.
If this guy was at my table, I'd get a feel for what range he's raising and start re-popping it to 20x when I feel I have the best of it between hole cards and position. I also would keep tabs on how he plays the flop in heads-up flops.
If the cards are cold, I might just re-pop him once with crap to build some mistrust.
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