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Open preflop and one caller - position/action?

  
 
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roy3
Old 06-20-2005, 03:27 PM     Post subject: Open preflop and one caller - position/action? #1 (permalink)  

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roy3
Dear all - first post for me - so please have pity on eager-to-learn newbie!

Below assusmes NO knowledge of caller.

If I open (with whatever criteria I use, perhaps "ABC" or TAG, say with JJ), and I get one caller, how does position influence the flop play?
Flop is A96, two suited.

A.
Suppose caller limps + calls OOP. The normal hoding would likely be a low pair to do so.

He comes out betting on the flop. What do I do?
If he checks - what to do?



B.
Suppose caller is behind me. Same everything.
Do I bet the flop, or check?
If I bet, and get raised - what to do? If I check and get raised - what to do?
ANd what if the guy just calls (either my bet or checks after me) - where do I stand?

Are there any general guidelines around for Flop-play that I can consult?
Or any decent book - I have searched but not found any good ones on NL except super system by Brunson.

Thanks,

Roy3
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drmcboy
Old 06-20-2005, 05:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 A - I had almost the exact deal happen in a tourney just now at lunch, JJ raised pre flop, flop A910 two diamonds, opp bet PS at me. I folded - a bet here is perfectly reasonable for an A or a flopped set because of the draws out. Plus if it's the set, he'll assume you have an A and will re raise.

If he checks I'd make a standard to high contiuation to rep the A. If he smooth calls, I may go again on the turn if the draw doesn't get there.

B - I'm betting once, a call or a raise and I'm done.
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dalecooper
Old 06-20-2005, 05:52 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I agree with the above. You want to take at least one shot at the pot after raising pre-flop. However, if it comes with an overcard and someone bets strongly into you, he's probably got it and you're safe to fold. There are tricky situations where he might be betting a draw and you want to raise the flop, but you need to have a good read that your opponent is capable of this kind of bet. (Some players habitually bet flush and straight draws.)
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Rondavu
Old 06-20-2005, 07:58 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I'll bet out first act if I have a weak TP ace like A8-AT. When the flop comes out I bet into it to see if my opponent has a stronger ace. You don't want to check the ace, because then your opponent thinks his jacks are good and gets aggressive. Then you have no read. Bad news.

Often I will represent the ace when I don't have it as well to see if I can get an insta-fold. So, if you are last act with JJ and get bet into on an ace board, then you better be raising modestly for information. Give a modest bet if checked to on the turn as well so he'll check on the river or even fold right there. Take a free showdown, then cry yourself to sleep when he flips over A5 suited.

If first act after the ace high flop holding JJ, you have to represent that ace. You don't want KQ, QT, QJ, JT, or any smaller pocket pair hanging around. If they call a healthy bet, then check on the turn. Hopefully they raise an ace right on the flop and allow you to muck cheap.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Irisheyes
Old 06-20-2005, 08:01 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I think you should never check. Make a bet of maybe a quarter of the pot. If you check you are basically saying "I don't have anything" and a player in later position will take the pot from you. If you bet and he doesn't have anything then he has no reason to call unless if he is on the draw. If you bet and get raised then drop it.

If he calls and the turn brings the flush, again the worst thing you can do is check. If you check and he bets then you garner no information from him other then he is playing his position. Bet and if you get raised then fold. If he calls be careful, maybe then you should check/fold the river as he is most likely slow playing you.
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DimitriT
Old 06-20-2005, 08:17 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I will always raise with JJ to help weed out the small pairs

but let's say he calls my 5-6x raise..

A. I will fold to a bet and bet on a check to take it in case he completely missed the flop (3x BB). Fold to a raise otherwise see more cards but check/fold the turn.

B. I will bet 3x here. If he calls we get to see another card or two (maybe a J will show). If he raises or bets the turn we are done.
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Rondavu
Old 06-21-2005, 12:49 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
If you check you are basically saying "I don't have anything" and a player in later position will take the pot from you.
Most of the time this is true, but it depends on your image with a particular player in hand with you. I like to find the aggressive players at a table and check raise them a couple times in a session to keep them honest. Then I can feel free to check a missed flop and not feel like it's going to get stolen from me. It can be very effective. They start stealing, I start check raising them. It becomes an unspoken understanding with these people after a while to play it straight up with me. Of course, some guys never let up. In that case I check raise the living shit out of them until their anus bleeds. Popsicle anyone?
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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EasyT
Old 06-21-2005, 04:51 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
If you check you are basically saying "I don't have anything" and a player in later position will take the pot from you.
Most of the time this is true, but it depends on your image with a particular player in hand with you. I like to find the aggressive players at a table and check raise them a couple times in a session to keep them honest. Then I can feel free to check a missed flop and not feel like it's going to get stolen from me. It can be very effective. They start stealing, I start check raising them. It becomes an unspoken understanding with these people after a while to play it straight up with me. Of course, some guys never let up. In that case I check raise the living shit out of them until their anus bleeds. Popsicle anyone?
But not here, with the JJ, right? This is not a check-raise situation, even if you opponent is the 'guy who never lets up'. I just want to make sure I understand you. You've already said you bet out with this.

So you're saying that if you have check-raised this opponent enough, you might get a free showdown on the river.
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Rondavu
Old 06-21-2005, 05:32 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyT
But not here, with the JJ, right? This is not a check-raise situation, even if you opponent is the 'guy who never lets up'. I just want to make sure I understand you. You've already said you bet out with this.

So you're saying that if you have check-raised this opponent enough, you might get a free showdown on the river.
Right, not here. This definately is NOT a check raise situation. I'm saying if you set someone up right it makes it easier for you to showdown a hand like JJ when the board is beating you.

I should also add that setting up an opponent with check raising can also have the effect of setting up delayed bluff steals on non threatening turns for you against such opponents. It is the case because you forced your opponent to stay honest and telegraph his strength by way of a mutual check through on the flop.

If it is an aggressive opponent that you domesticated with check raises throughout a session, then you can be a sure a check through by this opponent on the flop means true weakness in most cases.

Of course it's a lot easier to make someone fold on the turn than it is on the flop. This is a case where delayed steals can be used effectively.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Hubris1
Old 06-23-2005, 08:39 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimitriT
I will always raise with JJ to help weed out the small pairs

but let's say he calls my 5-6x raise..

A. I will fold to a bet and bet on a check to take it in case he completely missed the flop (3x BB). Fold to a raise otherwise see more cards but check/fold the turn.

B. I will bet 3x here. If he calls we get to see another card or two (maybe a J will show). If he raises or bets the turn we are done.
You're gonna raise 6xbb preflop and make a follow up of 3xbb? Aside from the fact that you are giving everyone and their mother odds (and everyone and their mother has a draw on that board) you're also giving the hand up, but you're paying to give the hand up.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-23-2005, 12:20 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Bet whenever you get the opportunity. If the ops decide to fight over the pot, let it go. Simple as that.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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