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zook
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05-16-2006, 06:22 PM
Post subject: Open limping
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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If the answer is yes, please discuss hand ranges.
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dzeanah
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Statesboro, GA
Posts: 95
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Total noob, but I'll try to get as cheap a flop as possible with PPs below JJ. Have lately been following AOKrongly's 19 hands strategy and have also been limping with easily dominated stuff like KJ.
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Poker isn't about making hands, it's about making hands that get paid off. -- Rondavu
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Myke
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 54
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I will open limp from EP with 22-99(100%) and A2s-A9s (50%).
I think limping with the A/rag may be a leak.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I posted this because lambchop wrong in a Beginner's Circle thread yesterday that you should NEVER open limp. (And he said never.)
I open limp from EP with 22-77, KQs and QJs. I think the last two may be leaks, but I try to play them for straight/flush potential and often fold them to LP raises, depending on reads.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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At microstakes openlimping small pairs is good.
Other than that openlimping sucks IMO.
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johnnyBuz
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
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small pocket pairs, suited connectors, suited gappers.
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Liter of cola.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
openlimping sucks IMO.
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FYP
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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This really should be in the "beginners section" as I'm sure open limping at stakes higher than $25NL is a recipe for dissaster.
At a loose table I will open limp anything that I would normally play except 99/TT+ (AK/AQ/88/99 are about 50/50 between raising and limping). That means suited connectors, low pp, any two cards J or higher (QJ+). I'll do this in early position and sometimes to mid-position.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
At microstakes openlimping small pairs is good.
Other than that openlimping sucks IMO.
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Renton, do you consider 50NL microstakes? What's your general postflop strategy when you miss your set with low PP in EP against one caller? I know it's extremely read/board-dependent I'm just wondering how you avoid losing a lot of money c-betting these. It's probably too read-dependent to discuss generally, so if you have any relavant HH's that would be awesome. Out of curiosity, what are your stats with 22-77?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
This really should be in the "beginners section" as I'm sure open limping at stakes higher than $25NL is a recipe for dissaster.
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I play 50NL profitably so far (with a miniscule sample size of 5000 hands) open limping a small range of hands from EP. So while it may be a leak, I don't think it's a "recipe for disaster".
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
At a loose table I will open limp anything that I would normally play except 99/TT+ (AK/AQ/88/99 are about 50/50 between raising and limping). That means suited connectors, low pp, any two cards J or higher (QJ+). I'll do this in early position and sometimes to mid-position.
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This, on the other hand, does sound like one.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I think openlimping small pairs in EP is acceptable at 50nl and below, and maybe even at 100nl.
At the stakes I play (100nl/200nl/400nl) I raise all pairs and cbet all heads up flops and it works for me.
If you open limp and miss your set with 22-66 your best be is to check/fold. You didn't raise PF so you don't have much postflop credibility. Remember you aren't betting the flop because you have a pair, you are betting it to represent top pair or overpair. Your pair is just backup in case he calls with a draw.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I like open limping AA from EP because it can be played like a set against a raiser.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I once tried mixing in 20% limps with AA in EP.
Literally every time I did it it limped all the way around.
Never again will I try that.
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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Zook: Why does it look like a leak? I figure since I do it for such a broad range of hands it would be impossible to put me on anything. Also, it keeps me from feeling obligated to c-bet or stay invovled with hands when I've missed the flop. I've actually had very good success trying this out over the last 2-3K hands. (Not that that's worth anything).
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
Zook: Why does it look like a leak? I figure since I do it for such a broad range of hands it would be impossible to put me on anything. Also, it keeps me from feeling obligated to c-bet or stay invovled with hands when I've missed the flop. I've actually had very good success trying this out over the last 2-3K hands. (Not that that's worth anything).
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I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, but here goes... more experienced players feel free to critique the critique.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
At a loose table I will open limp anything that I would normally play except 99/TT+ (AK/AQ/88/99 are about 50/50 between raising and limping). That means suited connectors, low pp, any two cards J or higher (QJ+). I'll do this in early position and sometimes to mid-position.
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I see a couple of problems. One is limping AK/AQ/88/99 50% of the time. I think the value you might gain from disguising these hands is more than lost by the hands that beat you because you let them see the flop. I think you should open raise these hands from any position, and raise behind with AK and occasionally AQ. The second is limping suited connectors and unsuited broadways. SCs hit very infrequently and when they do you usually have a draw, which sucks to play OOP. When QJ or KQ hits top pair, you're still vulnerable to a better kicker.
It just seems like by limping such a wide range of hands in EP you leave yourself with a lot of difficult post-flop decisions, compounded by the fact that you've let other players see the flop cheaply.
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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I'll agree with everything you've said and caveat my prior claims with the following:
SCs I play very infrequently in any position, but if I play them EP I'll limp. (I'm beginning to sour on SC in general, but that's a different post.)
I figure that if I have TPTK+ I'm good for about 2/3+ pot bet, plus there are still usually 1-2 people acting after the flop before me. So I won't fire away without something solid. The post flop decisions are usually easy, if I'm on a draw to the nuts I'll take a card if it's priced right (or I'll try and price it myself, if possible). If I have TPTK/2 pair I'll bet as if I'm front until someone tells me otherwise. I'll check/fold under all other conditions.
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Muxy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canadian LOLUH'S AND AMERICAN LOLUHS
Posts: 1,529
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I will limp 22-99 from EP up to MP2 then i will open for a raise with any hand i wan't to play from MP2 and beyond.
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 331
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I open push all hands
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
At microstakes openlimping small pairs is good.
Other than that openlimping sucks IMO.
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hmmm
I agree in 200nl+ (maybe 100nl+ games) that this is true in fr.
I also agree a tagg limping in 6max is bad, im still not sure about a slaggy player though considering the bluff limp/reraise and real limp/reraise.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vaks
I open push all hands
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wtf?
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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I would normally never open limp. However I played on Party a bit recently and often the PFR of tables was so low that I could be fairly confident of not getting raised. I would sometimes open limp drawing hands like SCs and gappers. I did it very rarely.
The plan for profit was to only play for 2 pair or higher, or to bet out my opponents if there were only a couple of really weak players in the hand.
I'd never seen tables that passive before, so I doubt I'll be trying it again.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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nice 1 year bump.
my basic strategy - if I don't think raising would be +ev I'd rather just fold it. it's good having more ways to win than just making a hand, and like was said, I don't want to have to balance by limping AA pre flop and whatnot.
but I have exceptions for longshot hands like a SC or low PP, such as:
too many ppl are post flop call stations
most are short stacks that suck post flop, who might overreact to a raise pre flop
my image sucks too much to raise pre flop, but I'll get action if I hit post flop
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Funny bump. 9 months later and 2 levels higher, I never open limp. Just shows to go ya.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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NEVER OPEN LIMP (Unless you play 50NL or below in which case you should open limp 88-22).
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Anosmic
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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LOL @ never open-limping.
Limp when the situation warrants. Limp when it will get you what you want. .
Put it this way. It's folded to you on the button. You have rockets.
You know the BB always pushes when someone tries to limp to his BB.
Are you telling me it's wrong to open-limp here?
Right, so there's one situation when you would. Go forth and find more.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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I started to openlimp small PP 22-55 UTG. But I never openlimp UTG+1.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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BN/SB when I have very little folding equity vs the BB.
I consider it an exploitive line, hence I don't worry much about what sorts of hands I do it with.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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in EP I will sometimes open limp 22-99. the top end of the scale i will raise quite a lot. and the bottom end of the scale i will limp quite a lot. not sure of exact percentages.
i play $50NL at pokerroom.
i think raising 22 utg at a FR table would make you less money then limping it.
i think you have a big leak if you say you will never open limp. poker is a situational game. there are times where there is just no value in raising. if you are playing at weak low stakes tables - you can stack someone nearly as easily with a set if the pot has been raised pf or not. and a lot of the tables are passive and a high percentage of the time you will see a flop without a raise behind you.
there must be tables where you have limped utg and if you are unwilling to do so - because of principle - i believe you have a leak in your game. poker is situational and you need to adapt. and that means that sometimes you should open limp hands.
if you are at a loose/weak table and you know a raise will be called by a lot of players and if you limp - most of the time there will not be a raise. and you have the better of it pf and think you'll get paid off big if you hit a flush, 2p, a straight, etc.
then it is a good idea to play some weaker holdings like QJs or J9s.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Differentiating based on stakes is for people who are too lazy to actually pay attention to their opponents. I've sat at .25-.50 NL tables where open-limping would be bad, and 2-5 NL tables where it's good.
Raising every hand you open is a strategy that works well against people who call too much pre-flop and fold too much to the c-bet. If you're a at a table with horrible players who never raise pre-flop and they stack off with crap in a limped pot, no reason not to limp a lot of hands.
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jameseyb
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sapley, Cambs.
Posts: 169
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My turn...
I'll limp small to medium pairs for set value in EP and MP and do the same with SCs in MP/LP. KQ/KJ get limped in MP onwards, KT /QJ from LP. Basically, the more EP I'm in, the more I stick to raising high pairs and premium hands, but even then I'm looking to make sets or flop TPGK with the rest.
Except 72o... Once a month I'll push with it just to prove I still have some balls.
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chipper5711
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 44
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From UTG, why limp at all? Raises from UTG tend to garner a lot of respect and often end up taking the blinds. I often see players use a raise from UTG on a tight table to take down blinds. Of course your table image and stack size might affect how well you can do this. 
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Once all-in and called, you are simply at the mercy of the cards.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I once tried mixing in 20% limps with AA in EP.
Literally every time I did it it limped all the way around.
Never again will I try that.
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I tried this too. It sucked. samething happened.
never again will I do this, (except when theres a guy who raises all the time at the table.)
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I think open limping depends on the table for me.
If the table is playing really tight, then I'll raise all pairs in all positions.
If the table is playing aggressively and there are some light 3-bettors to my left, then I'll open limp pairs in EP, cause it sucks getting blown off all your implied odds for a set.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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in a fr game, i never know what i will do until i do it. usually, i will open-limp early w/ stuff i want to see a flop with, dont mind calling a standard raise with, and cant justify raising with for fear of blowing out.
not comfortable discussing it, either, because i cant quantify any "tendency" to do it. usually, just to throw off the table, and let them know i can and WILL do some goofy shit, anywhere, anytime, and w/o provocation.
just as often, i will raise w/ crap, too. small pp's and baby sc's UTG are fun to steal blinds with on a tight as ass table...and show it when the table folds to buy action, but that was not the question.
i guess i will do that goofy crap (open-limping) when the table is loose passive and letting crap in cheap.
but in 6max...NEVER!!!
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Jupit3r
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 143
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This reminds me of something in NLHE:T&P. At some point Sklansky states that it's frequently correct to open limp from button with certain hands. Don't have the book here right now but if I recall right it was with hands like AXs and small suited connectors. Anyone agree with him?
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"I'm conservative, but I'm not a nut about it.", George H. W. Bush
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Wikkiwikki
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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Got this off Chris Ferguson's site....
http://www.chrisferguson.com/cgi-bin...update.cgi?s=1
Don't do it....
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I put "yes" but I really mean only EP except as a mixup. If I do, it's on a table that's loose passive PF and I have a weakish implied odds hands. Also, if there is a super fish at the table, I want to see a flop as cheap as possible with anything reasonable, so depending on relative position, that could mean open limping with some wierd stuff sometimes (Q7s) with terrible player on button or in the blinds.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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I like open limping against passive opponents
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Wikkiwikki
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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The problem is - you classify your hand - like in the article.
Now when you limp your saying this is a limping hand not a raising hand and you give your opponents more information.
You either want action or you don't - no real fine line here.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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It isnt just about hand ranges its about player types.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
openlimping sucks IMO.
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rediculous thing to say as a blanket statement.
Sit at a very loose table where people are stacking off with 2 pair/ the odd top pair in unraised pots and explain why raising 22 preflop UTG and getting 3+ callers is a good idea.
The more likely people are to stack off with weakish hands (2 pairs/ top pair) in unraised pots the better open limping is.
The more likely they are to aggressivly try to use position to take away your extra dead money, the worse open limping is. (except if you mix in limp reraises)
At the stars 2NL game limping 67s from mid position + is usually great and limping 99- from any position is great. Not only that but raising them is usually just plain silly.
At the stars 100NL game almost the exact opposite is usually true because the more aggressive players will raise behind and punish you.
At a loose-passive 100NL game im limping alot of PPs and SCs.
hmmm now i want to try an experiment where I open limp PPs and limp reraise say... QQ+, AK and see what happens.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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they only tihme i'm is limps is when i have drunkk too much whiskey
gooooooooooooooooooooooooo wollfpack!!!!!!!!!!
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fragmad
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13
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I will limp with QJ, 22-77/88, and any suited ace. Phil Hellmuth says what to do :S
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fragmad
I will limp with QJ, 22-77/88, and any suited ace. Phil Hellmuth says what to do :S |
Ive just started raising all these hands and I get alot more action with my made hands now!!
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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the greater a postflop edge you have, the better an idea it may be to limp.
the worse your speculated position, the better an idea it may be to limp.
i dont see how there's some fundamental reason why limping is a worse strategy than raising. it depends on the games, and you just hafta play post differently.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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the nuts pre is simply just top pair. getting all in with this post can be very problematic.
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
NEVER OPEN LIMP (Unless you play 50NL or below in which case you should open limp 88-22).
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How much would you preflop raise 9s and 10s then?
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